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  1. #111
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    ^^
    There is something called the "first bite rule" in most jurisdictions. In a nutshell the owner is not liable for what the dog does until has a history of biting someone. There is no facts indicating the dog bit anyone before.

    Regardless if the dog was right or wrong in biting the guy the first time (we don't have the facts so it is totally speculative). There is no evidence or even a contention the dog did anything wrong this time. It was simply a unjustified preemptive strike. Thus neither no crime nor civil tort appears available under the facts.

    Who cuts an animals eye out? Even in my most extreme revenge fantasies I wouldn't do some sick shit like that. Wouldn't even do it to a dead bird.
    The dog was chained up, right? And aggressively barking at him? And had bit him once before?

    How do you know the owner didn't chain him up to be 5 inches away from that guy's face? How do you know the owner wasn't purposely antagonizing the guy or deliberately trying to cause fear?

    Do you honestly think the owner did no wrong here? That maybe he should have taken pains to keep the dog away from the employee, given the nature of their animosity toward each other?

  2. #112
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    There is an element to love that is narcissistic, yes. But how do you know that your pet loves you?
    This would be an inquiry into: (1) What exactly is love?, (2) Are animals capable of our definition of love?

    Emotions in animals - their level of cognition. This field is growing day by day. But, it is not without its limitations, because it's asking the animals to adhere to what WE understand and define certain emotions, like love, to be. We coined this term, then, we're asking another species to manifest it, on our terms. The observer is the limitation.

    I think a better question is, "why must we know if our pet loves us?"

    Needing to know that love is reciprocated, to me, is more narcissistic.

  3. #113
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Needing to know that love is reciprocated, to me, is more narcissistic.
    Exactly.

    What I'm asking is why do people assume that their pets love them, as a justification for keeping them as pets?

  4. #114
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    The dog was chained up, right? And aggressively barking at him? And had bit him once before?

    How do you know the owner didn't chain him up to be 5 inches away from that guy's face? How do you know the owner wasn't purposely antagonizing the guy or deliberately trying to cause fear?

    Do you honestly think the owner did no wrong here? That maybe he should have taken pains to keep the dog away from the employee, given the nature of their animosity toward each other?
    Those are rhetorical questions with no basis in the facts provided. Based on the facts provided it seems unlikely and contrary to the account. If the dog is chained up and you think its dangerous its common sense to stay away beyond the length of the chain and not run up on the dog, taunting it with your arm and then cutting out its eye.

    Last night, he “egged on” the barking dog and charged at her, Detective Ken Ross III said. He allegedly then pulled out a nine-inch folding knife.

    “He taunted her with his arm, raised his arm with a knife and slashed the dog across the face,” he said. “He cut the dog over the right eye, all the way down to the eye socket bone.”
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  5. #115
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Exactly.

    What I'm asking is why do people assume that their pets love them, as a justification for keeping them as pets?
    Because "love" makes such a lovely justifier. It often gets a free pass from scrutiny. It's inherently seemingly "noble".

    All I know is that my imaginary elephant loves me.


  6. #116
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Those are rhetorical questions with no basis in the facts provided. Based on the facts provided it seems unlikely and contrary to the account.

    Last night, he “egged on” the barking dog and charged at her, Detective Ken Ross III said. He allegedly then pulled out a nine-inch folding knife.

    “He taunted her with his arm, raised his arm with a knife and slashed the dog across the face,” he said. “He cut the dog over the right eye, all the way down to the eye socket bone.”
    Yes, my questions were rhetorical but they are definitely based in the facts provided.

    What seems unlikely to you is not my concern, nor is it relevant.

    The simple fact is that neither of us knows what really happened or the history behind it - which is the reason why I asked you those rhetorical questions.

  7. #117
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Because "love" makes such a lovely justifier. It often gets a free pass from scrutiny. It's inherently seemingly "noble".

    All I know is that my imaginary elephant loves me.

    I am under no delusion that your elephant loves me, but I do certainly love it.

    So cute.

  8. #118
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    ^^
    There is something called the "first bite rule" in most jurisdictions. In a nutshell the owner is not liable for what the dog does until has a history of biting someone. There is no facts indicating the dog bit anyone before. The cutting out of the dogs eye happened a year after not contemporaneously.

    Regardless if the dog was right or wrong in biting the guy the first time (we don't have the facts so it is totally speculative). There is no evidence or even a contention the dog did anything wrong this time. It was simply a unjustified preemptive strike. Thus neither no crime nor civil tort appears available under the facts. Even if there were, good luck in any jury, or any judge for that matter finding liablity beyond nominal damages.

    Who cuts an animals eye out? Even in my most extreme revenge fantasies I wouldn't do some sick shit like that. Wouldn't even do it to a dead bird.
    I agree that what the employee did was gruesome and uncalled for, sure. It was hideous and gross. That doesn't negate the fact that the owner neglected to secure a peaceful work environment for his employees; an environment that didn't include the stresses of regularly being harassed by a large, hostile, animal. There is no reason for me to not consider that the owner was intentionally keeping the dog onsite to harass and cause tension.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  9. #119
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmed Justice View Post
    I agree that what the employee did was gruesome and uncalled for, sure. It was hideous and gross. That doesn't negate the fact that the owner neglected to secure a peaceful work environment for his employees; an environment that didn't include the stresses of regularly being harassed by a large, hostile, animal. There is no reason for me to not consider that the owner was intentionally keeping the dog onsite to harass and cause tension.
    Maybe but the law has a process of how people are to address violations of their employee grievances and civil rights and disfiguring animals is not part of that process. In fact it runs contrary to the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    What seems unlikely to you is not my concern, nor is it relevant.
    It is relevant to the perpetrator because he will be required to prove up any affirmative defense of self defense by a preponderance of the evidence.

    There is no reason to debate issue or hypothetical scenarios not supported by the evidence. Its completely outside the scope of the facts presented. It is not that just I find those scenarios unsupported by the facts and thus unlikely but that the objectively reasonable person would feel the same. In other words it comes off as "crazy talk".
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  10. #120
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Maybe but the law has a process of how people are to address violations of their employee grievances and civil rights and disfiguring animals is not part of that process. In fact it runs contrary to the process.
    Agreed, insofar as the law applies to the employee. And what about how the law applies to the employer? There are laws that address hostile working environments.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

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