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  1. #101
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What about babies, who are also dependent upon their parents as complete caregivers? I don't think the babies are understanding some abstract notion of "love"....just that that THING there = security. The THING becomes a mother, a mother it loves, as it grows older.

    Now, would that mean that parents love their babies out of narcissistic love, because it is "a piece of them"/theirs and it is completely dependent upon them for its survival?

    How about adoptive parents? Are they then narcissistic in their love for the adopted babies who does not yet consciously understand abstract notions of "love" and just sees the parents as "security/survival"?

    Is narcissistic love then "bad"? What isn't narcissistic love when there's a nurturer/nurtured dynamic?
    Of course parents are narcissistic. That's a given. And that's not a bad thing.

    But I am not thinking about it from the caregiver's perspective, but rather the object of the narcissism.

    It would make logical sense to care for a child you brought into the world because it didn't ask to be born. You are protecting it until it grows, not keeping it forever. When you are raising a child, it gains more and more independence as the years progress. Then it usually leaves the nest and decides whether or not it wants to remain in touch. It is given an opportunity to have independence, and then decides if it still loves the parent enough to come back at holidays.

    The same cannot be said of a pet.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Of course parents are narcissistic. That's a given. And that's not a bad thing.

    But I am not thinking about it from the caregiver's perspective, but rather the object of the narcissism.

    It would make logical sense to care for a child you brought into the world because it didn't ask to be born.
    What about adoptive parents?

    You are protecting it until it grows, not keeping it forever. When you are raising a child, it gains more and more independence as the years progress. Then it usually leaves the nest and decides whether or not it wants to remain in touch. It is given an opportunity to have independence, and then decides if it still loves the parent enough to come back at holidays.

    The same cannot be said of a pet.
    What about someone who will never gain independence? What about foster families who adopt such individuals?
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What if the child is severely disabled and does not have the cognitive functions to ever realize this abstract notion of "love"? Would the mother who continue to love such a child, practicing narcissistic love?
    Is their motivation narcissistic love?

  3. #103
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What about adoptive parents?
    Yes, adoptive parents are also narcissistic.

    What about someone who will never gain independence? What about foster families who adopt such individuals?
    The fact that these people are narcissistic doesn't change with the circumstance. People adopt pets out of narcissism, as well.

    I'm not saying that it's not noble, but it is narcissistic.

    The people you are referencing - the disabled bodies that can't care for themselves - they didn't become disabled simply because a parent wanted someone to love. But pets did.

    They were bred to be disabled, to be less than animals, for the pleasure of the owner.

    Is their motivation narcissistic love?
    I can never speak to someone's motivations, only the end result and the implications.

  4. #104
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurel View Post
    I wonder how you can deal with that rather than just leaving. Can you sue for harassment? The owner even admitted to the dog acting like that (not that he would have in court).
    I'm not sure, but it's likely the man didn't have money to sue in the first place. I believe he was a maintenence man. Charges should be filed against the owner though. Not only did he neglect to protect his dog and his business, more importantly, he neglected to protect his employees; this, even after his dog had already bitten this particular man already.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  5. #105
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmed Justice View Post
    I'm not sure, but it's likely the man didn't have money to sue in the first place. I believe he was a maintenence man. Charges should be filed against the owner though. Not only did he neglect to protect his dog and his business, more importantly, he neglected to protect his employees; this, even after his dog had already bitten this particular man already.
    Isn't it bad enough that some psychopath cut out his dogs eye without having to face criminal charges?
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  6. #106
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Isn't it bad enough that some psychopath cut out his dogs eye without having to face criminal charges?
    Nope.

    But I do think both sides should be settled in civil court, not criminal.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I can never speak to someone's motivations, only the end result and the implications.
    Fair enough.

    The people you are referencing - the disabled bodies that can't care for themselves - they didn't become disabled simply because a parent wanted someone to love. But pets did.
    I don't really know the breadth to which you're using the term "disabled".

    I don't know if centuries of domestication of certain animals really "disabled" them, in all cases. Just like I can't know if civilizing, say, a tribal person is making them "disabled". It's contextual.

    To me, disabled would mean that they cannot function (in some way) in their environment. A pet dog can function in its owner's house.

    *Let them be who they are* - who they *are* is, in great parts, circumstantial.

    But, if one can only speak to the end result, and the implications, not the motivations, then, how they came about "originally"
    is not as relevant as what we subsequently do with them.

    They were bred to be disabled, to be less than animals, for the pleasure of the owner.
    So true. And the reasons I detest pet shops. Adopt a pet from the local animal shelter! /PSA

    The fact that these people are narcissistic doesn't change with the circumstance. People adopt pets out of narcissism, as well.

    I'm not saying that it's not noble, but it is narcissistic.
    Ah, my point is that if we are including these whole gamut of examples as it pertains to this concept of "narcissistic love", then, narcissism is a component of all love. There isn't a thing out there, where love is in the equation, that narcissism isn't relevant.

    I love....

    as soon as I enters, it is an ego born. There's some thing about the object of your love, that satisfies a want/need/desire of yours.......hence, you love.

    .....when is it noble, when is it not? ........well....

  8. #108
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Isn't it bad enough that some psychopath cut out his dogs eye without having to face criminal charges?
    Absolutely not. He should face civil charges. He neglected his responsibility to his animal and his employees. To keep a hostile German Shephard onsite when you are aware that it "doesn't like minorities" and frequently harasses them at work, and that has already bitten an employee(if that is true), is audacious to say the least.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  9. #109
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I don't really know the breadth to which you're using the term "disabled".

    I don't know if centuries of domestication of certain animals really "disabled" them, in all cases. Just like I can't know if civilizing, say, a tribal person is making them "disabled". It's contextual.

    To me, disabled would mean that they cannot function (in some way) in their environment. A pet dog can function in its owner's house.
    Right, there is a difference between someone with a feeding tube and an animal who is just not allowed to go outside.

    But, if one can only speak to the end result, and the implications, not the motivations, then, how they came about "originally"
    is not as relevant as what we subsequently do with them.
    I see what you are getting at. My point is what we are subsequently doing with them.

    So true. And the reasons I detest pet shops. Adopt a pet from the local animal shelter! /PSA
    +1

    Ah, my point is that if we are including these whole gamut of examples as it pertains to this concept of "narcissistic love", then, narcissism is a component of all love. There isn't a thing out there, where love is in the equation, that narcissism isn't relevant.

    I love....

    as soon as I enters, it is an ego born. There's some thing about the object of the your love, that satisfies a want/need/desire of yours.......hence, you love.

    .....when is it noble, when is it not? ........well....
    There is an element to love that is narcissistic, yes. But how do you know that your pet loves you?

  10. #110
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    ^^
    There is something called the "first bite rule" in most jurisdictions. In a nutshell the owner is not liable for what the dog does until has a history of biting someone. There is no facts indicating the dog bit anyone before. The cutting out of the dogs eye happened a year after not contemporaneously.

    Regardless if the dog was right or wrong in biting the guy the first time (we don't have the facts so it is totally speculative). There is no evidence or even a contention the dog did anything wrong this time. It was simply a unjustified preemptive strike. Thus neither no crime nor civil tort appears available under the facts. Even if there were, good luck in any jury, or any judge for that matter finding liablity beyond nominal damages.

    Who cuts an animals eye out? Even in my most extreme revenge fantasies I wouldn't do some sick shit like that. Wouldn't even do it to a dead bird.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

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