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  1. #21
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Well, seeing that this victim was a demagogue who beleived in vigalante INjustice against others, it's kind of fitting...

    People had to learn the behavior somewhere, and personally, I'd think that people like Mr. Terrablanche was probably one of the teachers unintentionally.
    Its ironic and possibly "poetic justice," but its innocent people who will reap the bulk of the negative consequences.

  2. #22
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I read the story as kind of a little "poetic justice" piece... like when a rapist gets raped in prison or something

    Zimbabwe, not south Africa, is where the real problems between the races and by this point whether he's alive or dead has no influence over Mugabe's power in Zimbabwe... by now, if Mugabe wants the white people dead he's going to get his way whether some crazy white sepratist in South Africa is dead or not- so why bother mourning the man who possibly started it all when his death means nothing to the lives of a lot of other people in another country (except for perhaps making them a bit more paranoid)? Mugabe's going to be Mugabe one way or another- there's no turning him back to a sane man by now... not even a box of puppies could do that!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #23
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Zimbabwe, not south Africa, is where the real problems between the races and by this point whether he's alive or dead has no influence over Mugabe's power in Zimbabwe...
    I was talking about the impact of Mugabe (and the failure of the ANC leadership to condemn him) on South Africa, not the impact of a vigilante murder inside South Africa on Mugabe. A slight correction, though; the real problem in Zimbabwe is between Mugabe (along with the bureaucratic and security apparatus) and the overwhelmingly black opposition, not race relations at this point.

    And remember, Zimbabwe was once thought to be a relatively unlikely state for severe racial conflict to occur; that's why I noted that things will become more dangerous once elections in South Africa become competitive.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 04-07-2010 at 02:28 PM. Reason: forgot a word

  4. #24
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I was talking about the impact of Mugabe (and the failure of the ANC leadership to condemn him) on South Africa, not the impact of a vigilante murder inside South Africa on Mugabe. A slight correction, though; the real problem in Zimbabwe is between Mugabe (along with the bureaucratic and security apparatus) and the overwhelmingly black opposition, not race relations at this point.

    And remember, Zimbabwe was once thought to be an extremely unlikely state for severe racial conflict to occur; that's why I noted that things will become more dangerous once elections in South Africa become competitive.
    Of course what's generally reported to us in the US seems to be the effect that Mugabe has on white landowners in Zimbabwe

    And because of Mr Terreblanche's stances and roles in society, it seemed only a matter of time before someone would kill him, Mugabe influence or not... there had to be plenty of South Africans who wanted him dead- or at least to shut up permanently

    Zimbabwe was considered unlikely because everything had always been run the same there... native Africans having less than those of European descent. Mugabe decided to turn everything onto its head and mess up the system to the point where everyone was agitated about something. I think that SA has already gone through its agitation stage and even with competitive elections it won't be as severe as Zimbabwe
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #25
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I noticed you still haven't come up with any theoretically viable solutions...
    Still?

    I have noticed a manipulative trend in your arguments with me, i'm not participating.
    I do not profess to have the answers but a couple of suggestions would be....
    to hold a genuine general election, the vote counters and officials being neutral and intimidation/threats/violence should be erradicated.
    The foriegn debt should be interest free and reduced if not written off.
    With the right person forming a democratic government it would stand a much better chance of thriving, it is rich in natural resources.

    What would you suggest, covert C.I.A involvement?
    After all they are doing arms deals with China!
    And hey, it might be a GREAT idea.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  6. #26
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post

    to hold a genuine general election, the vote counters and officials being neutral and intimidation/threats/violence should be erradicated.

    The foriegn debt should be interest free and reduced if not written off.

    With the right person forming a democratic government it would stand a much better chance of thriving, it is rich in natural resources.

    What would you suggest, covert C.I.A involvement?
    After all they are doing arms deals with China!
    And hey, it might be a GREAT idea.
    1.) South African elections are already exceptional by global standards. There is always room for improvement, but how?

    2.) Last I checked (which was admittedly over a decade ago), South Africa had very little debt in relative terms, and is hardly a poverty case by global standards.

    3.) The government is already democratic, and while a "good" leader would help, it is neither possible nor prudent for a leader to be in control of everything, even putting aside the issues of recruiting and electing a "good" leader, and keeping that "good" leader honest. Without "good governance" and the rule of law, valuable natural resources are more often a hindrance than a help, research the "resource curse" phenomenon.

    4.) :rolli:

  7. #27
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) South African elections are already exceptional by global standards. There is always room for improvement, but how?

    2.) Last I checked (which was admittedly over a decade ago), South Africa had very little debt in relative terms, and is hardly a poverty case by global standards.

    3.) The government is already democratic, and while a "good" leader would help, it is neither possible nor prudent for a leader to be in control of everything, even putting aside the issues of recruiting and electing a "good" leader, and keeping that "good" leader honest. Without "good governance" and the rule of law, valuable natural resources are more often a hindrance than a help, research the "resource curse" phenomenon.

    4.) :rolli:
    Erm....I thought we were talking about Zimbabwe ... :rolli:
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Zimbabwe was considered unlikely because everything had always been run the same there... native Africans having less than those of European descent. Mugabe decided to turn everything onto its head and mess up the system to the point where everyone was agitated about something. I think that SA has already gone through its agitation stage and even with competitive elections it won't be as severe as Zimbabwe
    Zimbabwe achieved independence from white-minority rule approximately fifteen years before South Africa; why would you think that Zimbabwe entered a delayed "agitation-stage," but South Africa will not? The problems in Zimbabwe originated in the ruling party's inability to maintain a virtual monopoly on the black vote due to corruption, mismanagement, and rent-seeking practices, and their subsequent refusal lose power democratically. South Africa has never been tested in these regards.

  9. #29
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Erm....I thought we were talking about Zimbabwe ... :rolli:
    Zimbabwe has been utilized as a cautionary tale and referenced as a malign influence on South Africa, it is not the original topic under discussion. I was also discussing Zimbabwe as a tangent with whatever, but our own debate never shifted to Zimbabwe.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 04-07-2010 at 05:33 PM. Reason: clarification

  10. #30
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Zimbabwe has been utilized as a cautionary tale and referenced as a malign influence on South Africa, it is not the original topic under discussion. I was also discussing Zimbabwe as a tangent with whatever, but our own debate never shifted to Zimbabwe.
    Zimbabwe is referenced in the OP, it was also further discussed. It was the country i was talking about.
    I have a brother out in SA, we can talk about SA if you prefer.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

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