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  1. #1
    heart on fire
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    Default Krugman on so-called Death Panels and ObamaCare

    [YOUTUBE="aogCaGv9i78"]..[/YOUTUBE]


    Krugman, New York Times blogs, ABC News Sunday program "This Week."


    "People on the right, they're simultaneously screaming, 'They're going to send all the old people to death panels,' and 'It's not going to save any money,'"


    "The advisory panel which has the ability to make more or less binding judgments on saying this particular expensive treatment actually doesn't do any good medically and so we are not going to pay for it. That is actually going to save quite a lot of money. We don't know how much yet. The CBO gives it very little credit but, but most, most of the health care economists I talk to think that's going be a really, uh a really major cost saving."


    Thoughts? (Pick up your shinny pennies as you leave, one per poster limit)

  2. #2
    heart on fire
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    I'll add this in here for more conversation:

    Death Drugs Cause Uproar in Oregon - ABC News

  3. #3
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Paul Krugman actually suggested that the 9/11 attacks could end up being a net positive for the American economy. An economist who is not aware that the Broken Windows Fallacy is, in fact, a fallacy is not to be trusted.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #4
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    What I totally don't get is that before Granny was on socialized medicine for a long while and only now they're saying it's going to kill her.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #5
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    What I totally don't get is that before Granny was on socialized medicine for a long while and only now they're saying it's going to kill her.
    It's only okay if insurance companies sentence people to death.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #6
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's only okay if insurance companies sentence people to death.
    Yeah, that's what I was thinking exactly, this form of rationing is just a more visible, because of the controversary, version of the one that existed previously without complaint or to do.

    I remain to be convinced that the price mechanism is superior to this in practice particularly in health, I dont buy any of the emotionally charged arguments either for or against tax funded health services.

    People die, they get sick and die, its a tragic fact of life. Services should be judged on whether they are efficient and equitable, by itself he price mechanism and market forces were found wanting in that balance, perhaps tax funded alternatives wont be any better but shrill "they're killing people" on either side of the argument shouldnt count.

  7. #7
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The nature of the death panel's existence is inflated, And as was noted already, the extent to which we could claim the idea does exist is also already present in how the insurance companies handle things.

    On the whole, I do want to say that the isn't necessarily as imoral as people are trying to claim it is, though I'm not surprised that it's difficult for people (particularly average Americans) to digest because of some of our cutlural values.

    But really... if someone is very old, like 84, and the odds of keeping this person alive much longer are very low, and only with a procedure or support that's very expensive, I do kind of wonder what the point is. When I consider that no matter what system your in, any resource you use is a resource you could use somewhere else, I can't help but wonder if the morally correct thing to do would actually be to trying to keep that person alive so that resources can be spent on a more promising case.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #8
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    All this death panel talk implies something far more sinister than what would actually happen in practice. It would be a public relations nightmare for the government if they were really "killing off" grannies. I fully believe there will be groups that will be actively looking for these sorts of incident, and I'm glad there will be. It will help keep things in check.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #9
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Paul Krugman actually suggested that the 9/11 attacks could end up being a net positive for the American economy. An economist who is not aware that the Broken Windows Fallacy is, in fact, a fallacy is not to be trusted.
    A link would be more convincing than moral indignation...

  10. #10
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    All this death panel talk implies something far more sinister than what would actually happen in practice. It would be a public relations nightmare for the government if they were really "killing off" grannies. I fully believe there will be groups that will be actively looking for these sorts of incident, and I'm glad there will be. It will help keep things in check.
    I dunno. Notice that the woman in the article was only 64 years old -- medicare kicks in at 65. Wouldn't it be that if the Oregon insurance can keep her alive until she's 65, she'd be Medicare's problem?

    Another thing they are not saying is that the "Oregon Health Plan" is the state's Medicaid system.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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