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  1. #131
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I can't believe you actually took that bait. lulz
    Trying to play it cool now, I see.

    Our shitty school system and the fact that we're the only developed country in the world with these issues of denying large segments of the population adequate healthcare, that's the shit I'm talking about.
    I was referring only to the data provided, not your subjective opinion. According to the data provided, the US is tied with many other nations for first place.

    1) We're all immigrants.

    2) France and England both have quite significant poor immigrant populations. I'm not sure what you think any of this has to do with immigrants.
    We're not all immigrants, unless you use a definition so broad that it no longer has meaning. I'm a naturally born American citizen, I assume you are, too. Neither of us are immigrants.

    Both England and France have migration rates LESS THAN half (per 1000 people) of the US.


    Many poor white and black American women have part-time jobs as unskilled laborers. Women who want to be at home with their kids often elect to not "improve their standing" because they view family as more important.
    And? At no point did I say that no white or black women do this. Most American immigrants come from more traditional cultures where this is less of a choice.

    This is so not about immigrants.
    Immigration plays a large part in this. You can argue the degree, but you can't say it is irrelevant.

    You're funny. I never said there was anything wrong with being a stay-at-home wife. In fact, I think a lot of people would be better off if mothers stayed with their children. In fact, Americans seem to be less likely to be stay at home mothers.
    Of course you didn't. However, the data in the study values women (in terms of equality) who stay at home far less than those who have active careers. That much cannot be denied.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Trying to play it cool now, I see.
    No, dude, really. I think I'd go out of my way to date men who were not white if I really felt that way. In fact, I was bored waiting last night for someone to take that bait...apparently Merc is too smart to fall for such a trolling line.



    We're not all immigrants, unless you use a definition so broad that it no longer has meaning. I'm a naturally born American citizen, I assume you are, too. Neither of us are immigrants.
    If you aren't 100% Native American by ethnicity, yes, your family immigrated here. And since the U.S. is a fairly young country, even for people who arrived early on, say the 18th century, can trace their heritage back pretty easily. My family - other than my Native ancestors - didn't get here until the turn of the 20th century.

    Both England and France have migration rates LESS THAN half (per 1000 people) of the US.
    I think Blackmail! already proved the point you were trying to make here wrong.



    And? At no point did I say that no white or black women do this. Most American immigrants come from more traditional cultures where this is less of a choice.


    Immigration plays a large part in this. You can argue the degree, but you can't say it is irrelevant.
    No, because so many American born women also do these jobs. I don't think immigration plays a "large" part in this. However, I will say that socio-economic class does. There are assuredly more poor American women doing these jobs than wealthy European or Asian immigrant women.


    Of course you didn't. However, the data in the study values women (in terms of equality) who stay at home far less than those who have active careers. That much cannot be denied.
    Women still get paid significantly less than men for doing the same jobs, if they elect to have these careers. That's not about stay-at-home moms, nor is it about immigrants.

  3. #133
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Re: pay gap

    I read an study that women are less likely to ask for raises/promotions for themselves (than men) but MORE likely to ask for a raise or promotion for someone else... I'm sure there are other factors, including informal sexism, but this is an interesting one to consider.

    Also there are more incentives for males to have a higher salary, in terms of mating/status, at least.

  4. #134
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    If you aren't 100% Native American by ethnicity, yes, your family immigrated here. And since the U.S. is a fairly young country, even for people who arrived early on, say the 18th century, can trace their heritage back pretty easily. My family - other than my Native ancestors - didn't get here until the turn of the 20th century.
    If you're going to use that reasoning, then everyone in every nation in the world is an immigrant (thus, the term no longer has meaning). Native Americans crossed the Bering Strait thousands of years ago. All Europeans crossed through the Levant at one point. Even African tribes have moved around through the millennia.

    The argument you are presenting is pointless.

    I think Blackmail! already proved the point you were trying to make here wrong.
    The jury is still out on that. I asked for his source. I fully expect to be able to pick it apart, considering the fact that there are more than 8 million first generation Mexican immigrants (either legal or illegal) in the US, right now. I expect to see that he excluded Mexico.

    No, because so many American born women also do these jobs. I don't think immigration plays a "large" part in this. However, I will say that socio-economic class does. There are assuredly more poor American women doing these jobs than wealthy European or Asian immigrant women.
    Class plays a part, but I think that effect cancels itself out when comparing Western nations. I'm open to data that is evidence of the contrary (data, not opinion).

    Women still get paid significantly less than men for doing the same jobs, if they elect to have these careers. That's not about stay-at-home moms, nor is it about immigrants.
    Define "significantly". We've had this discussion before and I presented information that showed the pay gap is exaggerated (but still exists) because the comparisons are flawed.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #135
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Re: pay gap

    I read an study that women are less likely to ask for raises/promotions for themselves (than men) but MORE likely to ask for a raise or promotion for someone else... I'm sure there are other factors, including informal sexism, but this is an interesting one to consider.
    This is true. It's funny how often women are accused of being "gold-diggers" too, considering this fact. Very suggestive of low self-esteem. Why do they have low self-esteem? Perhaps because at some level they still think they are second class citizens. Most of the images they are bombarded with suggest that success is a man's prerogative.
    Also there are more incentives for males to have a higher salary, in terms of mating/status, at least.
    That's a bit circular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    In the US it's possibly still more affordable to have single-income families than other parts of the developed world?
    Scratch that.

    Approximate percentage of women employees (overall) .....52.22%
    Percentage of female CEOs ................................................0%

    From the recently released Corporate Gender Gap report 2010.
    (BTW, before anyone points it out, I know there are female CEOs in the States, just not in the corporations surveyed, I guess).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #136
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Scratch that.

    Approximate percentage of women employees (overall) .....52.22%
    Percentage of female CEOs ................................................0%

    From the recently released Corporate Gender Gap report 2010.
    (BTW, before anyone points it out, I know there are female CEOs in the States, just not in the corporations surveyed, I guess).
    Interesting. I wonder how they chose which corporations they surveyed. It took me less than 10 seconds (using Google) to find a major corporation with a female CEO.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Interesting. I wonder how they chose which corporations they surveyed. It took me less than 10 seconds (using Google) to find a major corporation with a female CEO.
    And yet you didn't use those 10 seconds to answer your own question. Odd.
    Our target respondents included the 100 largest employers in each of the 30 Member countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and
    Development (OECD) and Brazil, Russia, India and China (over 3,400 companies). We used Bloomberg databases to identify the full pool of publicly listed companies that fit these criteria.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #138
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Also there are more incentives for males to have a higher salary, in terms of mating/status, at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    That's a bit circular.
    What do you mean?

    I just meant that a high-income man is often perceived as more desirable from a mating perspective, whereas, for a woman making a similarly high salary, that is often not seen as a "plus," and is often a negative factor for a lot of heterosexual men. Not all men, obviously.

  9. #139
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    What do you mean?

    I just meant that a high-income man is often perceived as more desirable from a mating perspective, whereas, for a woman making a similarly high salary, that is often not seen as a "plus," and is often a negative factor for a lot of heterosexual men. Not all men, obviously.
    Indeed, that's a circular argument.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #140
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    So, what, I should be crying, "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!" ?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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