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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by olly_olly View Post
    When I read this I was thinking "Then they're just trying to appeal to Libertarians and they're not actually ones themselves" But then I read this last third of the post..

    And I was actually excited that somebody besides me realizes this, Because that is the stand (I think, but I'm not an expert and I usually stop listening when I hear politicians say those things. so I can not be sure which ones exactly) of a lot of Republicans, they will say they're for total freedoms, but only freedoms for businesses, and only enough freedoms for the people working for them so they, i.e. the Sheeple, can feel free.
    P.S. I'm sorry if I'm undermining anybody's lifestyle or work ethic, I'm just not brainwashed lol.

    IDK, but by the way you describe libertarians, it seems you have more of a right-sided view of it which is a very different thing then the Left-sided view. And yes we could argue day and night about suffering, but I cant see how suffering would be worse, ya maybe for us people in the U.S. but only until everyone has what they want (and the idea that people can never have enough is caused by the present way of life might I add) I believe everyone would just mind their own business.

    It is childish I know, but how less childish is it to have a style of government that does things just because they want to? Or to have the government sector (the people who make the laws, we don't) live lives that border the lifestyle of anarchy?
    I've got PMerc on ignore, for a self-described "libertarian" I've never met someone so apt to tell other people what they believe and then call them names if they disagree.

    I wouldnt say that I have a right wing view of libertarianism, I've fully appraised all the political positions within libertarianism and found the whole deal wanting. While I could very possibly be described as a political and civil libertarian but I'm not really socially, morally or economically/fiscally libertarian, although I do believe that central planning and state paternalism are clumbsy means of economic regulation/management. The support for small or nightwatchman governments is a Minarchist, which can be either left or right wing in theory.

    People dont mind their own business, if you want to take the example of this forum for instance it still requires moderation, there is a highly developed system of ignoring and shunning available, more developed than any social norm which presently operates or could operate in the abscence of coercive, intrusive and expensive legalism, but moderation is still required.

    Now I take the point that anarchism is not the abscence of order but a highly orderly status quo but I dont see that happening, to be honest Bertrand Russell's maxism that law is preferable to the state of primitive anarchy which preceeds it makes sense. I dont know what the private alternatives to the state are, syndics? Nope, they'd likely act like crime families and the theory alone nor the efforts of organisers has been sufficient to call them into existence like business practices have created and maintained corporations.

    Councils? Mutuality Clubs? Credit Unions? Clubs and Societies? All of the above? Well good but they havent threatened the state already so I dont see them doing it, not in event of an emergency, crisis or breakdown, plus I dont see quasi-political or social agencies like these succeeding were the economic ones havent because I see people are more economic in their existence than political or even social.

    I generally dont invest in arguing with anarchists or anarchism or any of the paler libertarian socialist equivalents, if it motivates some good then all is well. To be honest I dont think there's enough personal responsibility anymore to make any of the classical political or economic ideas feasible, weather that's capitalism, socialism, liberalism, anarchism, neither are there anything like the norms of behaviour or organic, informal social structures which predated the rise of individualism and statism from the time of the American and French revolutions until now.

  2. #12
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Putting someone on ignore is not a very good way to try to debate their ideas. It's a free online community, though. I just cannot stand when someone misrepresents the views of millions of people. The point about economic freedom and social freedom both being indispensable to libertarianism stands.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #13
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    It actually means that you're a libertarian socialist, or that you're a socialist anarchist. Unlike most people who identify as libertarian, left libertarians are anti-capitalist. Unlike other people who identify as socialist, libertarian socialists want to abolish authoritarian institutions and like the idea of democracy taking place on a smaller, more local scale.

    I identify somewhat with this political philosophy, personally.

  4. #14
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Frankly, I wish I only had to argue politics with left-libertarians.
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  5. #15
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    Come on, Pure merc!

    Join us, join us on the left side of the branch!
    Let yourself go, let yourself express your true leftist nature!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Come on, Pure merc!

    Join us, join us on the left side of the branch!
    Let yourself go, let yourself express your true leftist nature!
    But I LOVE free market capitalism, and I HATE most of what the government does. I am a liberal in the old-school, John Locke/Thomas Jefferson/Thomas Paine sense. Fuck paternalism!
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #17
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    Three kinds of "Left Libertarians"

    First, what Rothbard called "Left Libertarian", the most radical of libertarians against state authority. Anarcho-capitalists and agorists would be LL by this definition.

    Second, libertarian socialists/socialist libertarians. I fall into this category. Those who favor individual liberty and are generally either anti-statist (anarchists) or favor a limited state (minarchists), but do favor a socialist economic system (though likely not run by the state). Mutualists, anarcho-syndicalists, anarcho-communists, pareconists, and anarchist collectivists would all fall under this category of LL.

    Third, the newest and saddest definition of "left libertarianism"-- as the GOP and other rightist elements have co-opted the ideas and language of libertarians, while still clinging to conservative or even reactionary social values, for some people "left libertarian" has come to mean those libertarians with liberal social values-- in other words, what were once called just "libertarians" before right-wingers started co-opting the term. Don't forget that "libertarian" is just classical liberalism with a new name.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Three kinds of "Left Libertarians"

    First, what Rothbard called "Left Libertarian", the most radical of libertarians against state authority. Anarcho-capitalists and agorists would be LL by this definition.

    Second, libertarian socialists/socialist libertarians. I fall into this category. Those who favor individual liberty and are generally either anti-statist (anarchists) or favor a limited state (minarchists), but do favor a socialist economic system (though likely not run by the state). Mutualists, anarcho-syndicalists, anarcho-communists, pareconists, and anarchist collectivists would all fall under this category of LL.

    Third, the newest and saddest definition of "left libertarianism"-- as the GOP and other rightist elements have co-opted the ideas and language of libertarians, while still clinging to conservative or even reactionary social values, for some people "left libertarian" has come to mean those libertarians with liberal social values-- in other words, what were once called just "libertarians" before right-wingers started co-opting the term. Don't forget that "libertarian" is just classical liberalism with a new name.

    That's what I just said!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Three kinds of "Left Libertarians"

    First, what Rothbard called "Left Libertarian", the most radical of libertarians against state authority. Anarcho-capitalists and agorists would be LL by this definition.

    Second, libertarian socialists/socialist libertarians. I fall into this category. Those who favor individual liberty and are generally either anti-statist (anarchists) or favor a limited state (minarchists), but do favor a socialist economic system (though likely not run by the state). Mutualists, anarcho-syndicalists, anarcho-communists, pareconists, and anarchist collectivists would all fall under this category of LL.

    Third, the newest and saddest definition of "left libertarianism"-- as the GOP and other rightist elements have co-opted the ideas and language of libertarians, while still clinging to conservative or even reactionary social values, for some people "left libertarian" has come to mean those libertarians with liberal social values-- in other words, what were once called just "libertarians" before right-wingers started co-opting the term.
    OH OK I'm starting to see why there's so much debate on this subject (I'm also starting to see that I jump into things way before I know what I'm really talking about, but that's how I learn I guess) and I would have to say the Libertarian socialists (hence the Left-Libertarian Thread lol) sounds exactly what I usually am thinking about and there has to be a way to do it doesnt there? It can't be impossible.. think about the U.S., does any of you think it will still be here 200 years from now (try to think financially and resource wise)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Don't forget that "libertarian" is just classical liberalism with a new name.
    And for reasons like this I don't intend to make a living as politician lol, although it would be fun I would think.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member alexx's Avatar
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    I'm a moderate to conservative Libertarian, depending on the issue.

    Have you taken any tests?

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