User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 21

  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,648

    Default Socialism has become objectively impossible

    At least in the developed, western world and its satellites.

    I'm posting this thread because I still hear lots and lots about how Obamacare is the thin end of the wedge leading to a socialist state, I just wanted to sum up in a couple of points, based upon my knowledge of UK socialists themselves as opposed to conservative propaganda, why socialism has become objectively impossible.

    Cultural changes:-

    - People invest more in their lives as consumers than they do as either producers or providers now, its their first thought and often characterises their relationships towards others, ie marriages and coupling even become exchange relationships as opposed to reciprocally giving.

    - There's no indignity in unemployment because you can still shop til you drop. Socialists, contra to a lot of conservative propaganda, consider being unemployed reprehensible, the first socialists would have argued that you find work, any work, at any rate, in preference to either charity or public assistance.

    - Presonal responsibility has become eroded. The "character" required for most socialist schemes and envisaged by most socialist thinkers was one of self-governing individuals who then were capable of controlling their work and workplace. This is an entirely alien concept now. Even most managers shun responsibility and accountability, through delegation the philosophy of get someone else to do it and get them to carry the can has become institutionalised and normative.

    - Relationships towards the state and others are totally and utterly distorted, entire generations and communities exist now with expectations that the state or even simply strangers will act towards them with paternal/maternal concern and understanding. The injured egos that result from realising life aint so result in general grievance which is easily channelled by terrorist, racist, criminal or other anti-social avenues.

    - Really basic norms, such as keeping your temper in check, arent valued, therefore pro-social behaviour is also totally alien. Pro-social behaviour in and out of working lives was a very basic tenet of both general social conscience and socialist norms specifically.

    So whatever the hell is evolving globally from the slow death of ideological capitalism (which isnt the same as "actual capitalism", which I dont believe has been tried and wouldnt work anyway not everyone being rational calculators with equal bargaining power to mention but one obvious contradicton) isnt socialism, even when it is called socialism by fans or foes alike.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    136

    Default

    Agreed. Marx thought the machinery of capitalism would discipline and organize the proletariat, and thus make it capable of seizing power and running society. The opposite has been true-- late-stage capitalism has made the working-class weak, disorganized, decadent, and dependent on things outside of their individual or even collective control.

  3. #3
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    I'd like to address this digression: "which isnt the same as "actual capitalism", which I dont believe has been tried and wouldnt work anyway not everyone being rational calculators with equal bargaining power to mention but one obvious contradicton"


    Since when do you need everyone being rational calculators with equal bargaining power to have "actual capitalism?" That sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of what capitalism is.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    136

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Since when do you need everyone being rational calculators with equal bargaining power to have "actual capitalism?" That sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of what capitalism is.
    You don't, but you do need those things for pure free-market capitalism to work in the manner its advocates often claim it will (being the most efficient system, being the most just system, being the system which produces the most good, being the system that best maximizes individual liberty and natural rights, etc.).

  5. #5
    Senior Member JHBowden's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3
    Posts
    201

    Default

    The good news about socialism is that it is self-defeating. The bad news about socialism is that it is self-defeating.

    Social democracy is self-destructive because it has two incompatible aims: growth in government, and population reduction.

    Since government services are funded like Ponzi schemes, they require more and more resources. This means there always has to be young people to tax. On the other hand, feminism, abortion, alternative marriages, delayed adulthood, all encourage fewer and smaller families.

    The end result? A society that collapses on itself. Fewer families equal higher taxes/printing money to support the debts of an elderly majority, which makes it harder for young people to create families, which means even fewer families, an even smaller amount of young people in proportion to old people, which leads to even more taxes on the young people, debt/inflation... and social democracy flushes itself down the toilet.

    One solution might be to outsource baby production. Then we can still grow old before we grow up, and still have taxpayers to foot the bill! But then we end up with people who don't value social democracy-- Muslim supremacists in Europe, for example. And since multiculturalism says all lifestyles are equal, no one gets assimilated, social democracy declines.

    And if anyone wants to call my argument conservative propaganda, of course it is conservative propaganda. Propaganda shouldn't be a bad word; there is nothing wrong with advertising an argument.

    If we really want to get at the bottom of our decline, we need to rethink our assumptions about gender equality. Even most conservatives won't touch this one, even though it seems obvious to me that we can't have a secular progressive society without secular progressives. That means secular women need to have secular babies. The most powerful person in Europe is a childless woman-- that says everything about the West's situation.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,648

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    You don't, but you do need those things for pure free-market capitalism to work in the manner its advocates often claim it will (being the most efficient system, being the most just system, being the system which produces the most good, being the system that best maximizes individual liberty and natural rights, etc.).
    Exactly.

    What's bugged me for a long, long time is that you get this satire on socialism thinly veiled in TV shows and films like Fire Fly suggesting that it is a perfectionist vision out of step with people natural inclination, if anything this is as good, if not a greater criticism of capitalism, industrialism and modernism.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,648

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Agreed. Marx thought the machinery of capitalism would discipline and organize the proletariat, and thus make it capable of seizing power and running society. The opposite has been true-- late-stage capitalism has made the working-class weak, disorganized, decadent, and dependent on things outside of their individual or even collective control.
    I'm unsure about that, the language about disciplining and organising sounds a bit like the leninist et al revisionism of Marx into doctrinaire Marxism, although its probably right to suppose that he thought that the working of the system would entail a development of working peoples capacities instead of the underdevelopment and deskilling which has been the result of "scientific management" etc.

    Plus he never anticipated mass markets and consumerism, that has been a cultural and sociological force which he couldnt have guessed at.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    976

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    You don't, but you do need those things for pure free-market capitalism to work in the manner its advocates often claim it will (being the most efficient system, being the most just system, being the system which produces the most good, being the system that best maximizes individual liberty and natural rights, etc.).
    Actually, capitalism thrives on people making mistakes, some of them very large indeed, and on people acting on all sorts of motives...

  9. #9
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,648

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JHBowden View Post
    The good news about socialism is that it is self-defeating. The bad news about socialism is that it is self-defeating.

    Social democracy is self-destructive because it has two incompatible aims: growth in government, and population reduction.

    Since government services are funded like Ponzi schemes, they require more and more resources. This means there always has to be young people to tax. On the other hand, feminism, abortion, alternative marriages, delayed adulthood, all encourage fewer and smaller families.

    The end result? A society that collapses on itself. Fewer families equal higher taxes/printing money to support the debts of an elderly majority, which makes it harder for young people to create families, which means even fewer families, an even smaller amount of young people in proportion to old people, which leads to even more taxes on the young people, debt/inflation... and social democracy flushes itself down the toilet.

    One solution might be to outsource baby production. Then we can still grow old before we grow up, and still have taxpayers to foot the bill! But then we end up with people who don't value social democracy-- Muslim supremacists in Europe, for example. And since multiculturalism says all lifestyles are equal, no one gets assimilated, social democracy declines.

    And if anyone wants to call my argument conservative propaganda, of course it is conservative propaganda. Propaganda shouldn't be a bad word; there is nothing wrong with advertising an argument.

    If we really want to get at the bottom of our decline, we need to rethink our assumptions about gender equality. Even most conservatives won't touch this one, even though it seems obvious to me that we can't have a secular progressive society without secular progressives. That means secular women need to have secular babies. The most powerful person in Europe is a childless woman-- that says everything about the West's situation.
    Dude, weirdest and unsupported (not to mention unsupportable) arguments I've ever seen.

  10. #10
    Senior Member JHBowden's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3
    Posts
    201

    Default

    Lark, you need to look carefully at the demographics.

Similar Threads

  1. Why do Social Theories Become Ideologies?
    By coberst in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-29-2010, 04:18 PM
  2. [INTP] Older INTPs: Have you become more or less social over the years?
    By ajblaise in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 08-01-2009, 09:48 PM
  3. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 06-25-2008, 06:33 PM
  4. [INTP] Being an INTP has become a LIVING HELL. HELP.
    By the_STRATOSPHERE in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 06-07-2008, 06:51 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO