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  1. #21
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    for small nation they are very formidable
    because of

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    nation no. 1
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  2. #22
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm sorry, I'm slightly confused. Do what? What in particular do you want me to elaborate on without mentioning the triple entente?
    I think he's asking what "real world" scenarios would lead to the United States being defeated, after already disallowing the possibility of a triple entente between China, Russia, and the EU as unrealistic. The phrasing of your previous post was somewhat unclear to me, as well.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I dont believe that Israel would fight a conventional war with the US but they could fight an intelligence war, the irony being that all the Islamic Fundamentalists could become tools in such a conflict, the whole leaderless network business isnt exactly resistant to infiltration (Mossad were able to infiltrate the USSRs spy networks easily enough) and I'm fairly sure that the Israelis would know how to run a proxy war.

    Plus the Jewish American population is almost equal to that of Israelis in Israel and Israel hasnt ever been a regular state, its an ethnic homeland to which it believes Jewish people international owe allegation and vice versa. In response to racism or apparent racism in Europe Israel simply said Jews should immigrate to Israel.

    So I kind of reckon they could take on the US, no one fights conventional wars anymore, not since WMDs and conventional war meant annihilation was likely even where it wasnt a war aim (its not ever a legit war aim even if it happens).

    To be honest apart from the Russians I dont really see anyone else in the world who dont kow tow to the US.

  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I think he's asking what "real world" scenarios would lead to the United States being defeated, after already disallowing the possibility of a triple entente between China, Russia, and the EU as unrealistic. The phrasing of your previous post was somewhat unclear to me, as well.
    Since I'm assuming that defeat doesn't have to include being defeated on one's own sovereign territory, there are a lot of scenarios.

    Furthermore, we must role out nukes. Stragetically, they are a deterent. If you deploy a nuke, you lose.

    That being said, the USA could be (and has been) defeated in a variety of scenarios in which it goes on the offensive. Now, in those cases, the USA had complex political goals of course. Part of my point is that nations rarely wage huge wars without very complicated reasons which must be factored into the strategy and tend to prevent really sensational, extreme courses of action from happening. Because of out little there is to gain, and how much to lose, almost any scenario concerning one of today's major powers attacking one of the other major powers seems implausible.


    But tet's say for some crazy reason the USA wanted to act like the Mongols or something and either conquer or level every one else (again, the cost of using nukes is too huge to even consider, would not support the objective). The USA could pull off a Mongol invasion in a number of places, but if it attacked China, Russia, any part of the EU, or even India, it would probably lose. The solidarity between the South American nations is such that invading one of them might pose a problem, too.

    Even lacking technology, just having a giant territory and a lot of people goes a long way in making your nation unconquerable. The gap in technology would have to be enormous (like Spain vs the Inca), because in situations where the defender is so large, it can bide its time and inevitably win by attrition. If you reversed the roles, it would be the same. Any one of these nations attempting to attack the USA would lose too. Between these geo-political titans, it is essentially a scenario in which the loser is whoever goes on the offensive.

    That's why conflict is settle through proxy wars.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    MP you're not considering the shattered union scenario, if the radicals in the US suceed in polarising the country enough that infighting breaks out the union could become divided and some states could be tempted to make deals with foreign powers, at its inception and during the US civil war Britain, Russia, France and Germany were all watching and expecting such a scenario with colonial ambitions.

  6. #26
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe that Israel would fight a conventional war with the US but they could fight an intelligence war, the irony being that all the Islamic Fundamentalists could become tools in such a conflict, the whole leaderless network business isnt exactly resistant to infiltration (Mossad were able to infiltrate the USSRs spy networks easily enough) and I'm fairly sure that the Israelis would know how to run a proxy war.
    Point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That being said, the USA could be (and has been) defeated in a variety of scenarios in which it goes on the offensive. Now, in those cases, the USA had complex political goals of course. Part of my point is that nations rarely wage huge wars without very complicated reasons which must be factored into the strategy and tend to prevent really sensational, extreme courses of action from happening. Because of out little there is to gain, and how much to lose, almost any scenario concerning one of today's major powers attacking one of the other major powers seems implausible.


    But tet's say for some crazy reason the USA wanted to act like the Mongols or something and either conquer or level every one else (again, the cost of using nukes is too huge to even consider, would not support the objective). The USA could pull off a Mongol invasion in a number of places, but if it attacked China, Russia, any part of the EU, or even India, it would probably lose. The solidarity between the South American nations is such that invading one of them might pose a problem, too.

    Even lacking technology, just having a giant territory and a lot of people goes a long way in making your nation unconquerable. The gap in technology would have to be enormous (like Spain vs the Inca), because in situations where the defender is so large, it can bide its time and inevitably win by attrition. If you reversed the roles, it would be the same. Any one of these nations attempting to attack the USA would lose too. Between these geo-political titans, it is essentially a scenario in which the loser is whoever goes on the offensive.

    That's why conflict is settle through proxy wars.
    Point(s).

  7. #27
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Really? No - there's no country on the planet that could prove to be a formidable opponent for the United States, in a nothing-to-lose military campaign.
    I totally agree with you, Night.

    In fact, we wouldn't even need a nothing-to-lose campaign, we would only need a campaign that allowed our military to kill the enemy without undue bitching from the media that we killed a civilian or two in the process of anhiliating all relevant military targets.

    We spend more on defense EACH YEAR than the rest of the world's top 5 militaries COMBINED. And we have for a LOOOOOONG time. There's no way in hell any little pissant military is going to kick our asses if the troops are allowed to do their jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Maybe China, but they don't have the technology or military organization yet.
    Nor will they for quite some time. Also, remember this:

    (1) Our friends the ATLANTIC and PACIFIC Oceans make it very difficult for anyone to deliver a regular military assault, be it missiles, a navy, bombers, etc, we have lots of vast blue oceans that give us ample time to detect whatever the hell is going on.

    (2) Once #1 above is recognized, it is then necessary to recognize that we have ridiculously capable countermeasures at our disposal, making it easy to get rid of what ever is sent our way.

    (3) We have evil little toys like the Sea Wolf III class nuclear submarine, which is capable of running in "caterpillar mode" ala "Red October" in addition to being able to sit on the bottom of the ocean floor for 6 MONTHS at one stretch. Then, upon command, it can rapidly surface, and send a myriad of nuclear warheads hurling toward whatever continent was stupid enough to fling spitballs at us.

    (4) Even if China did manage to send a ton of troops to invade California, it's one thing to land but another to take an entrenched native force.

    (5) Harder than overtaking an entrenched native force is keeping the foreign troops stocked with supplies, ammunition, food and ammunition once they are here. If they landed and our Air Force sank the ships still en route from Beijing shortly after, the initial wave of unfortunate Chinese Marines would be without sufficient materiel to last long on our beautiful beaches.

    (6) Don't forget about the Stealth Bomber! ZING! Oh my. What's that glow in the sky? Oh, it's China. Ooopsy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    The U.S. could kill every living thing on the planet.
    Many times over, guaranteed.

    Nonetheless, we are still not very well equipped to handle terrorist attacks on our own soil.

    And, we are also way too pussified in handling conflicts on other people's soil. We don't stick to our guns, it's a shame. We'd spare alot of lives, ours and the indigenous population of wherever we invade, if we just stuck with overwhelming force long enough to be 110% sure that ALL of the enemy forces are "neutralized." Get it over with, then teach everyone how to play X-Box and setup a new democracy. Wal-Mart on every corner, Chevy's in every driveway, YAY. :rolli:
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Halla I still remember how demoralising 9/11 was for the US.

    If you think about how Israel managed to exact revenge through Mossad operative for Munich they could have a dozen 9/11s on US soil, they're clever enough to put Islamists or white supremacists up to it too, therefore dealing with more than one foe at once.

    Before anyone jumps in to suggest that I've got some "world jewery" conspiracy going on here that's not what I'm saying, I'm discussing the formidability of the Israel state in geo-politics and military campaigning, its a different state from any other pretty much.

  9. #29
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Some points

    - While still an impressive military power, Israel isn't what it used to be at war. The population doesn't have taste for it as they did before. This is mainly because they are no longer the underdogs and the same level of patriotic commitment isn't required by the nation.
    - They IDF still have impressive tactical skills and train soldiers to think for themselves and develop good military instincts, rather than act like robots like the US military. I do think this gives them some advantage.
    - Israel may only have a poplulation of 6-7 million but almost all adults have military training. Even if only 2 million are reasonably able to fight, that would still be make it hard for the US. Of course you still need to be able to arm 2 million people...
    - Israel is good at defending Israel but not good at attacking other nations. If they had to defend the country from US invasion, I think they could really hold their own for a time (before America's resources would eventually overwhelm them). Even a barrage of cruise missiles wouldn't break the general population because there are bunkers everywhere which are designed to be lived in for periods of time and emergency proceeduces set up for such circumstances. Furthermore, Israelis are more mentally prepared for this. Whereas the American population couldn't handle the same kind of attacks at home. But Israel would severely struggle in open war or in invading American soil. They don't have the resources nor are they used to or trained in this kind of warfare. And all of this is even without considering the use of nuclear weaponry.

    Verdict: America would clearly win but it they would have to work for it.

  10. #30
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    On the back of the UK government condemning Israeli assasination squads stealing UK identities to travel to their targets countries I was talking to a friend of mine about Israel's formidability, for small nation they are very formidable and I was wondering what everyone thinks about their capacity to overcome even nation no. 1 in an armed struggle, they defeated the UK in a terror campaign at their inception and have been fighting a war steadily since.
    It depends on who the initiator is. If Israel attacked the US first, then the US would respond by attacking another country. In this case I'd have to give the victory to Israel easily.

    On the other hand if the US attacked Israel first, then neither side would win. The US would destroy any form of government in Israeal and cause utter chaos. Then they'd turn the military into a police force, and the war would drag out forever and ever with no clear victory condition.

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