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  1. #61
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Fecal, no one takes you seriously any more because people have refuted your claims. You simply refuse to acknowledge anything and people are tired of wasting their time with you.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #62
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Interesting. Who is making incorrect assumptions here?
    I am only guilty of the one.

    From a myriad of perspectives, one can argue for and against the commercialization of health care.

    Even if I accept that "a free market is a vastly better provider of goods and services" that does not make it necessarily true for health care.

    To say this is so is a logical fallacy.

    Debate on folks, I am heading to bed!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #63
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    When my 98 year old grandmother, afflicted with Alzheimer's, had to finally go to a nursing home, she turned her face to the wall and refused to eat and screamed at her son, "Let me go! Let me go!" The decision was made between her doctors and my parents to turn up her morphine drip and let her go. If this had been done under the new plan, would it be what you're calling "Death Panels"? The fact is, at some point, there is nothing to gain by keeping someone under various treatments -- they have come to the end of their road. But someone has to make the decision to pull the plug, so to speak. We can keep people "alive" for quite some time -- but alive with no volition and no quality of life, and sometimes even against their will -- does it make sense to continue to treat and continue to bill in such a case?

  4. #64
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    Um, Tiltyred, you do realize you just described a conspiracy to commit murder? Euthanasia, as far as I'm aware, is considered homicide in every jurisdiction. What you described was not simply allowing someone to die ("pulling the plug"/DNR), nor even assisted suicide, but a decision to euthanize a mentally incompetent person.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Um, Tiltyred, you do realize you just described a conspiracy to commit murder? Euthanasia, as far as I'm aware, is considered homicide in every jurisdiction. What you described was not simply allowing someone to die ("pulling the plug"/DNR), nor even assisted suicide, but a decision to euthanize a mentally incompetent person.
    Whatever you call it, it's been going on for years and years and years, is my point, so all this scare talk about Death Panels that will pull the plug on grandma is moot. People have been pulling the plug on grandma since there's been a plug to pull. I guess we could have force fed her, would that have been kinder?

  6. #66
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    Even if I accept that "a free market is a vastly better provider of goods and services" that does not make it necessarily true for health care.

    To say this is so is a logical fallacy.
    You do realize that we don't even know that. Much of health insurance in the USA is run by monopolies by state.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I guess we could have force fed her, would that have been kinder?
    There's a difference between not force feeding her and knowingly increasing the morphine drip to fatal levels. Perhaps you misspoke, in which case I'd strongly suggest clarifying, but I'm not trying to pass moral judgment, just saying that it might not be the best idea to mention what could be construed/misconstrued as a conspiracy to commit homicide.

    The world is full of busybody snitches and overly aggressive/ethically-challenged law enforcement and prosecutors. The internet is no exception, so if made an error in your explanation, it would probably be a good idea to clarify. For instance, maybe you meant that the morphine drip was increased to ease the suffering as she died of self-imposed starvation, not to actually induce death.

  8. #68
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Some Guy View Post
    Um, Tiltyred, you do realize you just described a conspiracy to commit murder? Euthanasia, as far as I'm aware, is considered homicide in every jurisdiction. What you described was not simply allowing someone to die ("pulling the plug"/DNR), nor even assisted suicide, but a decision to euthanize a mentally incompetent person.
    Actually, it's legal in a few states in the U.S. And "passive euthanasia" (that is, withdrawing lifesaving measures) is effectively legal almost everywhere. With all the heroic lifesaving measures available someone, somewhere, has to decide when enough is enough.


    I agree with Haphazard, in so far as the system we have (and had) in the U.S. is extremely far from a free market system with effective competition. Both tying insurance to one's employer and not having national competition limit any positive free-market effects. I would have preferred they moved everyone to individual selection from health care exchanges (or some other open market) with insurance companies competing nationally. That would have been a reasonable test-case to see if free-market healthcare could be effective.

    Of course, I would have preferred a single-payer system (like medicare) but that wasn't politically feasible.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Actually, it's legal in a few states in the U.S. And "passive euthanasia" (that is, withdrawing lifesaving measures) is effectively legal almost everywhere. With all the heroic lifesaving measures available someone, somewhere, has to decide when enough is enough.
    By euthanasia, I meant specifically active euthanasia performed without the patient's informed consent. Sorry for not being clear on this.

    Oregon was the first state to legalize physician-assisted suicide, but there are numerous restrictions:

    Oregon Death with Dignity Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Someone with Alzheimer's would not be considered mentally competent to give consent. I doubt active euthanasia for Alzheimer's patients is legal anywhere, but at least in the US I would be shocked if there were a jurisdiction in which it was legal.

  10. #70
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    You do realize that we don't even know that. Much of health insurance in the USA is run by monopolies by state.
    Yes, I do realize that, thank you. I never claimed the current system is a "free market system" either; please don't misread my posts.

    Can't solid arguments be created on this topic without resorting to ad hominem attacks or hyperbole? A lack of debating technique is clearly evident in these health care threads. They may have started off informally, even emotionally, but now most important, if you want this to go anywhere, you have to set aside tendencies to hysterical exaggeration and use fact-based analysis to really find TRUTH, if that's indeed what anyone is even interested in here.

    How many logical fallacies have been committed thus far ... here's a fun list, let me go through my mind on both these threads and ponder the weak arguments.

    Formal fallacies

    Appeal to Law: an argument which implies that legislation is a moral imperative. - yes
    Appeal to probability: assumes that because something could happen, it is inevitable that it will happen. This is the premise on which Murphy's Law is based. - yes
    Argument from fallacy: if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion is fallacious. - yes
    Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true. - YES
    Base rate fallacy: using weak evidence to make a probability judgment without taking into account known empirical statistics about the probability. - YES
    Conjunction fallacy: assumption that an outcome simultaneously satisfying multiple conditions is more probable than an outcome satisfying a single one of them. - YES
    Correlative based fallacies
    - Denying the correlative: where attempts are made at introducing alternatives where there are none. - no
    - Suppressed correlative: where a correlative is redefined so that one alternative is made impossible. - yes
    Fallacy of necessity: a degree of unwarranted necessity is placed in the conclusion based on the necessity of one or more of its premises. - yes
    False dilemma (false dichotomy): where two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more. - yes
    If-by-whiskey: An argument that supports both sides of an issue by using terms that are selectively emotionally sensitive. - yes
    Ignoratio elenchi: An irrelevant conclusion or irrelevant thesis. - yes
    Is-ought problem: the inappropriate inference that because something is some way or other, so it ought to be that way. - YES
    Homunculus fallacy: where a "middle-man" is used for explanation, this usually leads to regressive middle-man. Explanations without actually explaining the real nature of a function or a process. Instead, it explains the concept in terms of the concept itself, without first defining or explaining the original concept. - yes
    Masked man fallacy: the substitution of identical designators in a true statement can lead to a false one. - no
    Naturalistic fallacy: a fallacy that claims that if something is natural, then it is good or right. - no
    Nirvana fallacy: when solutions to problems are said not to be right because they are not perfect. - yes
    Negative proof fallacy: that, because a premise cannot be proven false, the premise must be true; or that, because a premise cannot be proven true, the premise must be false. - yes
    Package-deal fallacy: consists of assuming that things often grouped together by tradition or culture must always be grouped that way. - yes
    Red Herring: also called a "fallacy of relevance." This occurs when the speaker is trying to distract the audience by arguing some new topic, or just generally going off topic with an argument. - yes

    I could go on, but frankly, I have work to do and these health care threads have just become tedious, not to mention a HUGE bore.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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