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  1. #51
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    No, once again the point evades you. We know the UK has de facto "Death Panels." We know they often deny care, with fatal consequences, to those who could survive much longer with proper treatment--the treatment they were denied. The existence of such panels is not in question. But we would find it very difficult to determine the exact number of "victims" because we would almost certainly be forced to depend on statistics proffered by the NHS. Getting the NHS to tell you how many people their Death Panels have killed would be like

    Getting the LAPD to tell you how many times their officers engaged in police brutality between 1960 and 2010

    Getting the U.S. Dept of Defense to tell you how many Iraqi women American soldiers have raped since the start of the U.S. occupation of Iraq

    And so on.
    You have provided no evidence to back your claim, instead you say that it can't be proven. This is poor debate strategy.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What options do you have now? Bow to the health insurance companies or die.
    Health insurance companies are not the problem. They have about a 3% profit margin, which is very ordinary, and about 1/6 of the profit margin of beverage companies (Coke, Pepsi, etc.)

    Health insurance companies are the middlemen, and they are required to abide by the draconian legislations which existed before Obamacare, and which exist now.

    In the future, as health care costs rise, it will be increasingly difficult for Obama to turn insurance companies into his pet scapegoat. Everybody will understand--well, most people---that they are simply passing on the costs of Obamacare. Obamacare was not exactly passed quietly.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You have provided no evidence to back your claim, instead you say that it can't be proven. This is poor debate strategy.
    You didn't get it. Again.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Fecal, no offense, but you are so convinced of your position there IS nothing to rebut.
    Engage me. Let's test that supposition.

  5. #55
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    My husband's company is not a huge corporation -- they employ around 500 people, but we have excellent health insurance at a reasonable price. It is self-funded and they use an administrative service for the PPO, etc. Co-pays are reasonable and affordable and there is no deductible and I don't remember pre-existing conditions ever coming up.

    I think they are able to do this in large part because nobody is trying to make a profit from it. It's just a service they provide because it helps get and keep the kind of employees they want.

    Seems to me more companies could have been doing something like this. Why haven't they?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Engage me. Let's test that supposition.
    I don't wish to engage in straw man arguments; I and others have provided facts to rebut other posts you have made and they go unacknowledged. Frankly, for me it's not worth the effort.

    I can see you have already come to your own conclusions and you only wish to defend them here. I would however encourage you to keep an open mind and research your own facts and come to your own conclusions before accepting the opinions from the articles you like to link to.

    At least be aware of your own personal biases that color these discussions. I can tend to be optimistic for example, with my first tendency to believe the best about a situation. That's why I try to analyze issues with a critical eye to try to base any possible conclusions on a larger body of evidence.

    You need more facts to back up your arguments, not hyperbole or supposition.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I don't wish to engage in straw man arguments; I and others have provided facts to rebut other posts you have made and they go unacknowledged. Frankly, for me it's not worth the effort.

    I can see you have already come to your own conclusions. I would however encourage you to keep an open mind and research your own facts and come to your own conclusions before accepting the opinions from the articles you like to link to.

    At least be aware of your own personal biases that color these discussions. I am aware that I can tend to be optimistic for example, with my first tendency to believe the best about a situation. That's why I try to analyze issues with a critical eye to try to base any possible conclusions on a larger body of evidence.

    You need more facts to back up your arguments, not hyperbole or supposition.
    if you wish to engage in an argument, you have to attempt to rebut...something. Not state "others already have." If others already have, fine, but then be specific, quote relevant portions, etc.

    If your point is simply to state that you disagree, without asserting why you disagree, that is simply more value-free information I need to wade through in order to encounter substantive material in this forum.

  8. #58
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I don't see anything worthy to rebut. What I hear you saying is that you disagree with universal health care and what is loosely termed "Obamacare" - tell me, what would change your mind about it at this point?

    I'm pretty sure the answer is ... nothing.

    To have a worthy discussion or argument requires some ability to see the opponent's viewpoint. Maybe it would be interesting for you to try to argue for universal health care.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My husband's company is not a huge corporation -- they employ around 500 people, but we have excellent health insurance at a reasonable price. It is self-funded and they use an administrative service for the PPO, etc. Co-pays are reasonable and affordable and there is no deductible and I don't remember pre-existing conditions ever coming up.

    I think they are able to do this in large part because nobody is trying to make a profit from it. It's just a service they provide because it helps get and keep the kind of employees they want.

    Seems to me more companies could have been doing something like this. Why haven't they?
    I too would like to know more. I assume, right off the bat, that unless a company is willing to pay large & self-defeating premiums for stop-loss insurance, the primary barrier is company size...500 employees actually sounds quite small...

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I don't see anything worthy to rebut. What I hear you saying is that you disagree with universal health care and what is loosely termed "Obamacare" - tell me, what would change your mind about it at this point?

    I'm pretty sure the answer is ... nothing.
    Interesting. Who is making incorrect assumptions here?

    Let's break this down into two separate issues.

    First is the question of Obamacare and what it will do and what it will lead to. We have oodles of historical precedent on this issue, so if someone wishes to argue, for example that, adding those with pre-existing conditions to an insurance pool will not drive up premiums, I'd be very curious to see examples...

    Secondly, my position--that a free market is a vastly better provider of goods and services--including food, health care, shoes, dildos, etc.--for the overwhelming majority than either true top-down command and control economies or a highly regulated mixed-economy is, similarly, a rebuttable position; simply rebut it. It's out there, waiting to be shot at, as it were.

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