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  1. #41
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I have yet to see this "choice" people are saying the US already has when it comes to medical care.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    What's ironic about his argument is that health insurance companies all have their own death panels. They call them underwriters.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #43
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    If you are attempting to rebut my position, you might try to, uh, rebut my position.

    The NY Times piece, for example, states:

    There is nothing in any of the legislative proposals that would call for the creation of death panels or any other governmental body that would cut off care for the critically ill as a cost-cutting measure.


    I wrote:

    Soon, as the costs of Obamacare go through the roof, medical rationing will get more and more extreme. Death Panels, for example, will be created, and if Grandma's cancer treatment costs too much, she will not be treated.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What's ironic about his argument is that health insurance companies all have their own death panels. They call them underwriters.
    Medical rationing will exist in any country or any system, but I'd much rather live in a country or deal with a system in which I have options, not to mention prosperity.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So you're claiming something exists, but then you say there's no way to prove it exists. That's top notch debate right there.
    No, once again the point evades you. We know the UK has de facto "Death Panels." We know they often deny care, with fatal consequences, to those who could survive much longer with proper treatment--the treatment they were denied. The existence of such panels is not in question. But we would find it very difficult to determine the exact number of "victims" because we would almost certainly be forced to depend on statistics proffered by the NHS. Getting the NHS to tell you how many people their Death Panels have killed would be like

    Getting the LAPD to tell you how many times their officers engaged in police brutality between 1960 and 2010

    Getting the U.S. Dept of Defense to tell you how many Iraqi women American soldiers have raped since the start of the U.S. occupation of Iraq

    And so on.

  6. #46
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Fecal, no offense, but you are so convinced of your position there IS nothing to rebut.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I have yet to see this "choice" people are saying the US already has when it comes to medical care.
    Would you like some examples from my own life?

  8. #48
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What's ironic about his argument is that health insurance companies all have their own death panels. They call them underwriters.
    I know. I totally don't get it!

    It seems to me the only thing that's changed is that health insurance companies have been made angrier and were just given a bunch more hostages.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    It seems to me the only thing that's changed is that health insurance companies have been made angrier and were just given a bunch more hostages.
    They haven't been, yet. But soon, that will take effect, and in the very short term things will be much as they are today...the very short term.

    And it isn't the insurance companies who will be angry in the short term--2014-2020, say, but those who already have reasonably good insurance and/or those effected by the collateral damage (the unemployed, small businesses, etc.)...

  10. #50
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Medical rationing will exist in any country or any system, but I'd much rather live in a country or deal with a system in which I have options, not to mention prosperity.
    What options do you have now? Bow to the health insurance companies or die.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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