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  1. #51
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I think you vastly over-estimate the negative health outcomes of the existing system (not that its great, but there are no legions of people in dire physical health as a result of not having public health care).
    So why is it ranked 37th in the world? And 14th (out of 18) for Preventable Deaths?

    It is startling to see the U.S. falling even farther behind on this crucial indicator of health system performance. By focusing on deaths amenable to health care, Nolte and McKee strip out factors such as population and lifestyle differences that are often cited in response to international comparisons showing the U.S. lagging in health outcomes. The fact that other countries are reducing these preventable deaths more rapidly, yet spending far less, indicates that policy, goals, and efforts to improve health systems make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Some of the people who would thus qualify would be some of the highest cost users (people with pre-existing medical conditions etc.)
    This is certainly true, although I would suspect that people currently enrolled in Medicare are already among the highest cost users because it is primarily the elderly. I don't know if the currently uninsured would raise the average cost per user significantly.

    That being said, with the legislation passed, costs associated will be up-front and people will have the benefit of competition and choice, just as they do for other forms of insurance. That supposedly should keep the financial burden to an individual controllable ...
    If only this were true. The biggest problem with the current bill to my mind is the lack of any solution for the influence and lack of competition among health care insurers. Allowing the companies to insure across state lines would certainly help. I will concede that it will probably be easier for people with pre-existing conditions to secure insurance, though.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSprout View Post
    The Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of Constitutionality, even if you or others disagree with their interpretation.
    The Supreme Court has the authority to impose a legal standard on any flimsy pretext, nothing more.

  4. #54
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSprout View Post
    The Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of Constitutionality, even if you or others disagree with their interpretation.
    This is true. However, it is also true that the Constitution has been interpreted far beyond its original intent... so much so as to violate some of its plainest language, in some cases.

  5. #55
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    So why is it ranked 37th in the world? And 14th (out of 18) for Preventable Deaths?


    [/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
    Because we have much cheaper food (and a subsidized corn syrup industry), much cheaper gas, much cheaper ciggarettes, and overall better material conditions than most other high-income countries. :rolli:

  6. #56
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    This is so simple and so pragmatic that I can't believe I haven't seen it suggested before. It sounds like the perfect stopgap until we can actually hammer out a proper health care bill that works. (i.e., never.)
    "Opt-in" programs for State Medicaid have been piloted if I am not mistaken. Florida piloted an "Opt-Out" program for folks who qualified for coverage under Medicaid, but for one reason or another wanted to be covered by a plan other than those with existing contracts. The "Opt-Out" programs were not very successful as there was little benefit to consumers.

    "Opt-In" on the other hand would have been a huge success at the national level. With regard to monthly rates for HMO level health care, the more people that are covered in a given system, the lower the monthly rate per person of equivalent risk. This is basicaly economies of scale at work, especially with regard to greedy insurance companies giving large risk pools (e.g. Medicaid programs, state government employee systems, large corporations, etc.) a big break in premium as they benefit dtrictly from the cash flow alone.

    Remember, managed care is PRE-PAID, and they can invest the premiums immediately if they so desire. One plan in Florida purchased $11 million in re-insurance from their own Cayman Islands subsidiary insurer, while their competitiors purchased $1 million of re-insurance. The move was approved by the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation, and basically qualified the plan to claim a meager profit that year, as re-insurance is an expense, and thus deducted from revenue before net income is calculated.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    This leads me to believe that there is some giant problem with this idea that we aren't thinking of.
    Yeah, it's so easy that sick amounts of money can't be generated by creating something big, new, and confusing that no one understands, but for some pre-ordained reason must be operational by date "X." Don't let it fool you, the solution is legitimate.

    The highest cost individuals in the Medicaid program are the SSI beneficiaries. They have chronic and costly pre-existing conditions, and are at less than 1.0 of the FPL (federal poverty level). Their rates at birth are very high (~$10,000 oper month) and range from ~$200 per month to about ~$800 per month through the early sixties. Their care would NOT enter the public health care system, as these people are true Medicaid beneficiaries.

    Most of the folks in the "uninsured" category nationwidwe are young and healthy, and thus qualify for TANF level rates as I discussed above. Sure, the occasional pre-existing condition would emerge, but that is easily adjustd for so the people can be of good health and the plan execs get their yacht too, without all of us going broke.

    Finally don't forget how much cost is directly caused by the HOSPITAL and PHARMACEUTICAL industries. They are both in the top 3 lobbying efforts during each general election, and contribute ungodly amouonts of money to keep us at gunpoint paying whatever they demand for services. Unlike managed care rates, hospital rates are based on a "cost reimbursement" methodology, and are much more prone to being boondoggled than a fee for service claims or encounter data (X12 transaction with PTE indicator checked) actuarially sound methodology with a two year base period, that also adjusts for trends at the state's district levels and of course inflation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    That's the kind of answer I was actually looking for concering the health care bill. I want to have facts what it is all about instead of people fearmongering by waving the evil flag of Socialism and in general just getting superemotional.
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  7. #57
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Because we have much cheaper food (and a subsidized corn syrup industry), much cheaper gas, much cheaper ciggarettes, and overall better material conditions than most other high-income countries. :rolli:
    Guess you didn't read my post.
    Nolte and McKee strip out factors such as population and lifestyle differences that are often cited in response to international comparisons showing the U.S. lagging in health outcomes. The fact that other countries are reducing these preventable deaths more rapidly, yet spending far less, indicates that policy, goals, and efforts to improve health systems make a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #58
    /X\(:: :: )/X\ BlueSprout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The Supreme Court has the authority to impose a legal standard on any flimsy pretext, nothing more.
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    This is true. However, it is also true that the Constitution has been interpreted far beyond its original intent... so much so as to violate some of its plainest language, in some cases.
    The Constitution gives the right of Judicial Review to the SC in Article III Section 2 ("jurisdiction") and Marbury v. Madison formalized it in 1803. I don't know what else to say. If you value the Constitution, then the role of the SC is nothing to sneeze at. Who would have the power of judicial review if not the Court? Who would get to decide what is "reasonable" or "Constitutional"?
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  9. #59
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    People can't afford health insurance because the industry costs are out of control. What do our law makers do about it? Make it mandatory to purchase health insurance. I don't see any good coming out of this and I consider myself a liberal.

  10. #60
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSprout View Post
    The Constitution gives the right of Judicial Review to the SC in Article III Section 2 ("jurisdiction") and Marbury v. Madison formalized it in 1803. I don't know what else to say. If you value the Constitution, then the role of the SC is nothing to sneeze at. Who would have the power of judicial review if not the Court? Who would get to decide what is "reasonable" or "Constitutional"?
    The Supreme Court is a necessary institution whose members have largely betrayed the responsibilities of their office. To paraphrase Lincoln, calling something constitutional doesn't make it so. And yes, I'm a huge fan of the Federalist Society.

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