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  1. #31
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Because it directly conflicts with the next part of the mission statement (you know, the whole "secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity" thing).
    Yes. We are unfortunately looking at two vague and sweeping mission statements that will almost inevitably be inrepreted to contradict each other. Blame the founding fathers.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Its not the worst, but it IS blatantly unconstitutional (you'll be happy to know that a socialized system would actually much less constitutionally dubious). Of course, that didn't matter to Justice Kennedy where imminent domain is concerned, either...
    Who has it mattered to? Historically, this country has been built upon so many theoretically or potentially unconstituitional bills or order for so long, that I can't even imagine what this country would look like if no violation of the constitution ever happened. I don't even know if it would exist.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #32
    /X\(:: :: )/X\ BlueSprout's Avatar
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    Lowtech Redneck:

    First, not even the mandatory purchase of health insurance is “blatantly” unconstitutional because it arguably falls under the Commerce Clause (in terms of powers of the federal government), which has been used to force individuals to engage in commerce by the Supreme Court (Wickard v. Filburn, for instance). Moreover, even if the mandated purchase of health care is determined to be unconstitutional, it would not strike down the entire bill, only that clause. As for the spending, no tax expenditure since the New Deal has been deemed an abuse of the powers of Congress - they are permitted to tax and spend to promote the general welfare. That's not to say it won't be contested - several state attorneys general are poised to do so, but it is not likely to prevent this bill from being implemented. It is far from a 'clear cut' violation of the Constitution or the powers of Congress.
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  3. #33
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    That's because European countries are based on monarchy and serfdom
    That's true. We also eat our babies.

    Perhaps you need to be investing more in public education too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #34
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    I do think universal health care is a very moral issue, in its essence it's all about helping the disadvantaged, the destitute, the poor the dying instead of letting money and power win.
    But money and power have won. Now the market for health insurance is just like the market for car insurance... everyone has to have it. Health insurance companies now have a captive market, by law.

    And about "helping the disadvantaged, the destitute, the poor and dying"... you get credit for that if it's what you do in your free time. Using the government's force to extort other people's money to give to your favorite charities isn't compassion.

    Honestly, neither the Big Government nor Big Business gives a rat's ass about any of us individuals. All we want out of the deal is some remaining scrap of our once-vibrant right to be left alone.

  5. #35
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    And about "helping the disadvantaged, the destitute, the poor and dying"... you get credit for that if it's what you do in your free time. Using the government's force to extort other people's money to give to your favorite charities isn't compassion.
    If we could rely on people to always act compassionately and in the best interests of their fellow man then we could do without government altogether.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #36
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    But money and power have won. Now the market for health insurance is just like the market for car insurance... everyone has to have it. Health insurance companies now have a captive market, by law.
    You know, if not me, then someone else is just going to make the case (again) for how citizen health is much better in the UHC nations than it is in the USA. And cheaper. More popular in their respective countries than our system is here, etc...

    Empericially, there seem to be no great losses for having this system.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    And about "helping the disadvantaged, the destitute, the poor and dying"... you get credit for that if it's what you do in your free time. Using the government's force to extort other people's money to give to your favorite charities isn't compassion.
    Society in essence is interdependence and mutal obligation.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #37
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    That's true. We also eat our babies.
    I don't believe that of Europeans in general, Morgan, but I'm not so sure about you specifically.

  8. #38
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Society in essence is interdependence and mutal obligation.
    In the absence of some principle to balance this, I assure you that you emphatically do not want a government that pushes this idea to the absolute.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    (Also as a European I am a bit shocked how some Americans can be so opposed to the concept of universal health care, we had it in many countries for decades and though it is not perfect I most certainly would rather get ill in Europe than in the US.)
    I think Europeans who are shocked at this don't understand how rooted the notion of self-reliance is in American society. It goes back as far as the first European settlers to America, and was a key part of the American Revolution. It's ingrained in our culture, and is seen as a virtue. Even well-meaning government programs are seen as invasive because the benefit comes with a loss of freedom. Keeping the government out of our business is a national pastime. I think Europeans have a longer tradition of government intervention into society and don't instinctively recoil at the notion like we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    (Again obviously from a European point of view it's unbelievable to us that something as basic as universal health care hasn't already been passed decades ago in the States. To us the right to have basic health care even if you are not rich is seen not as a luxury but as a basic human right.)
    I have no issue with the basic idea you lay out here. The problem is in the details. To say "basic health care is a human right" is to beg a multitude of difficult questions with no easy answers.

    1. "Basic health care" is a very vague term. Who decides what level of treatment is warranted/needed by each patient?
    2. All health care is not equal. How is access to the best doctors, hospitals and treatments allocated?
    3. Should you be able to privately purchase services from doctors and hospitals if you are not satisfied with the care you are given under the national plan? And if so, how do you keep the best doctors and hospitals from being monopolized by wealthy people?

    I think the current system is broken, but I don't think the plan we passed is a panacea. I think it's seriously flawed, and it does little to address the main problem with the current system, which in my opinion is the legal racketeering engaged in by health insurance companies. I also think we only get one shot at this, unlike civil rights. I'm very pessimistic.
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  10. #40
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    In the absence of some principle to balance this, I assure you that you emphatically do not want a government that pushes this idea to the absolute.
    EDIT: I've changed my words, because I feel that the appropriate answer to this is complicated.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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