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  1. #21
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    We've got mandatory eduction, may as well make sure everybody's healthy enough to go to school. Ha, America The Great Kibbutz.

  2. #22
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    (Again obviously from a European point of view it's unbelievable to us that something as basic as universal health care hasn't already been passed decades ago in the States. To us the right to have basic health care even if you are not rich is seen not as a luxury but as a basic human right.)
    That's because European countries are based on monarchy and serfdom, whereas the US was founded on individual freedom.

    By definition, health care cannot be a human right, because a right cannot require another person to act on your behalf.

    This bill is the worst in US history, is blatantly unconstitutional, and will hopefully have its worst parts struck down by the courts.
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  3. #23
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    How does health care not fall within this purview?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #24
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    That's because European countries are based on monarchy and serfdom
    LOL
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  5. #25
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But for example, a brand-name medication I take that costs $90 in Canada (if I had no Rx insurance) costs $260 here - these are the discrepancies that make me suspect that a great deal of the money involved lines the pockets of the profession and the periphery of medicine itself. In two visits to the doctor here, I saw no fewer than three pharmaceutical reps peddling their wares ... there certainly is a less "commerical" feel to medicine in Canada.
    And what economic incentives do you think led to the development of your brand-name medication in the first place? Do you think the less commercial Canadian system would have been as likely to produce it and similar medications? How expensive do you think such medication will be in the near future, when generics can compete with it? And if the medication is still so new that you can't buy generics, then its by definition not "basic" medical care in the first place.

    The American system has some undeniable cost problems (which this current bill in no way alleviates) which have partial remedies (primarily relating to the uncompetitive nature of existing regulations) with bipartisan support, but contempt about a commercial "feel" to medicine is a counter-productive mind-set.

  6. #26
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    That's because European countries are based on monarchy and serfdom, whereas the US was founded on individual freedom.
    Due to issues of inquality and burdensome extortion on the part of businesses, you'll find that many Europeans (and Americans like me) think that this healtchare system probably makes people more free in terms of its practical outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    By definition, health care cannot be a human right, because a right cannot require another person to act on your behalf.
    I cannot find a definition of rights that aligns with this statement.

    No matter. It does not need to be a right, I don't care if it isn't one. I think of it as a moral onus that is well within our capacity to oblige.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    This bill is the worst in US history, is blatantly unconstitutional, and will hopefully have its worst parts struck down by the courts.
    You're being emotional in the wake of this decision. The USA has some pretty horrible bills in its history. This does not compare.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    How does health care not fall within this purview?
    Because it directly conflicts with the next part of the mission statement (you know, the whole "secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity" thing).

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You're being emotional in the wake of this decision. The USA has some pretty horrible bills in its history. This does not compare.
    Its not the worst, but it IS blatantly unconstitutional (you'll be happy to know that a socialized system would actually much less constitutionally dubious). Of course, that didn't matter to Justice Kennedy where imminent domain is concerned, either...

  9. #29
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    And what economic incentives do you think led to the development of your brand-name medication in the first place? Do you think the less commercial Canadian system would have been as likely to produce it and similar medications? How expensive do you think such medication will be in the near future, when generics can compete with it? And if the medication is still so new that you can't buy generics, then its by definition not "basic" medical care in the first place.

    The American system has some undeniable cost problems (which this current bill in no way alleviates) which have partial remedies (primarily relating to the uncompetitive nature of existing regulations) with bipartisan support, but contempt about a commercial "feel" to medicine is a counter-productive mind-set.
    You are reading in a contempt that doesn't exist. Your attitude is baffling to me. I am enjoying being in the US very much; but people condemn what they do not know without proper education on the issue at hand. People say that universal health care is bad; I ask them why, and they say something like "it's gonna cost a lot of money" ... if you have better answers than that I am excited to hear them.

    I used a brand-name medication to illustrate that I wasn't comparing generics to brand-name, since generics have a lower cost. The generic of that particular medication costs $45 in Canada; don't know if you can get the generic version here.

    But that's not the point. As I said, Rx medication of any type is NOT covered by the Canadian Health Act unless you are admitted to the hospital and use it while you are there.

    I am certain I know far more about the US and your health care system than you do about Canada (or any other countries for that matter).

    What I do believe is that the promise of making money is what fuels pharmaceutical research, and the high costs of litigation here in the US are what also contribute to the costs shouldered by the average person who uses said medications.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #30
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Because it directly conflicts with the next part of the mission statement (you know, the whole "secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity" thing).
    Do you think a health care bill here is a compromise to individual freedom? What about posterity? Does a lack of health care benefit the generations to come? Or compromise it?

    How can one have true freedom if they cannot access a basic level of health? It is tantamount to being uneducated. Why then must everyone go to school? Do you think that is a violation of the constitution as well?

    These are honest and curious questions, so please don't read anything else into them.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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