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  1. #221
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) Policy influence from corporations relates to push and pull factors, not "shipping jobs overseas." Issues like free trade, minimum wage, red tape, taxes, etc. are all concrete, multidimensional policy issues with wide-ranging affects (which vary according to all other prevailing conditions), some of which benefit this group of corporations (and individual Americans), and some which benefit other groups of the same.
    And large companies (and industries) get their way with these policy issues more often than not. I know your response will be that if the government didn't have these powers, business would not be able to exploit it. But that's a hollow argument. They always find a way to exploit the situation, regardless of the circumstances (see the late 1800s for numerous examples).

    2.) The interests of health insurance companies is not inherently the same as the interests of rival corporations.
    This is a pointless statement. We've already established that business interests are not monolithic.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #222
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Yep. Pretty much. The non-Americans still don't get the fact that people who live in America WANT to live in America, and if we wanted to live in Europe or Australia bad enough, we could move there.
    Of course you do. Why wouldn't you? And no one is trying to convert anyone's citizenship in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Not to mention feeling the need to critique how the U.S. runs itself. Yeah... thanks, guys... no, really. We appreciate all the advice.
    You're welcome Since I live here in the US now, I feel it gives me a little more credibility to at least express my POV. You would be interested in the misconceptions I've heard spouted so far, not only about Canada but other countries too, by well-meaning folk who never look much beyond the US borders I suppose.

    I'm not proselytizing here.

    The concerns raised about this bill appear valid to me. But this seems to have been the best that could be negotiated at this time to gain the support of the majority of the senate.

    I think it will improve, and the rough edges will get smoothed off.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #223
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    O
    I think it will improve, and the rough edges will get smoothed off.
    me too.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  4. #224
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think it will improve, and the rough edges will get smoothed off.
    It will change over time, that much is certain. But how will it change?

    I would wager that the group that understands this legislation best, right now, is the health insurance industry. They're already trying to figure out have this bill tweaked to favor them even more. And Americans, with their short attention spans, will eventually lose interest while all this deal-making goes on. It's the American way.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #225
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is a pointless statement. We've already established that business interests are not monolithic.
    The point being that other corporations will oppose them when the interests of health insurance companies conflicts with their own interests. You may disagree with my point, but the implicit (because I'm lazy) point was there all the same.

  6. #226
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The point being that other corporations will oppose them when the interests of health insurance companies conflicts with their own interests. You may disagree with my point, but the implicit (because I'm lazy) point was there all the same.
    I don't disagree that the interests of corporations will conflict sometimes, as they do with certain aspects of health insurance reform, but those conflicts do not necessarily benefit Americans, as a whole. I'm under the impression that you see business interests as interests that will balance each other out. I don't. I think that may happen in some particular cases, but as a whole, business interests (and the interests of any group where an immense amount of power is concentrated) tend to be in conflict with the people.

    One of Adam Smith's caveats was that, in order for the "invisible hand" to work, individuals had to be moral. This is something that is often overlooked or forgotten, and I don't think humans measure up.

    Edit: I think that the nature of our modern society, where people can be so disconnected, makes it much easier for someone to be immoral. This wasn't necessarily the case in Adam Smith's time.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #227
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    And no one outside of the US understands this and just thinks we hate poor people. *shrug*
    No, we take universal health care for granted. And are curious why that appears opposed.

    I am aware that this opposition takes a number of forms, right from the principle of UHC to this actual bill and what is contained therein. And even the fact that this bill doesn't go far enough, in the opinion of many.

    But no, we don't think you hate poor people.

    Heaven help any politician in Canada who would try to tamper with the concept of UHC now though. It would be political death for certain. Public opinion is very high for the support of it.

    Here's an opinion piece from the Vancouver Sun; seems a cogent summary with Canadian spin.

    Obama's health bill should also benefit Canada

    Regardless of what happens next, U.S. President Barack Obama has achieved a historic breakthrough with the passage through Congress of a health care reform bill.

    The bill is the first fundamental change in the American social welfare system in more than 40 years and gives Obama his first significant victory since taking office. Even though he failed to create the bipartisan effort he promised before getting elected, he found a way to get it done, which should restore some of the credibility he has lost over the past several months.

    From what we can tell, the health bill will be a mixed blessing for Americans. On the plus side it addresses the national embarrassment of being the only major economic power in the world without universal health care. For millions of Americans who have no health care, who can't afford it or who have been rejected by private insurance companies, it offers hope.

    But it also comes at a heavy price, the magnitude of which will only become fully apparent over time.

    For the federal government, the added costs will land on top of record deficits already bloated by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the bailouts of Wall Street and Detroit and the economic stimulus program.

    For individual Americans who already have health insurance and businesses large and small, the question will be whether costs will go up, decline, or stay the same. No one has a clear idea of how that piece, which is crucial to whether opponents of the health care reform bill carry on with their struggle, will turn out.

    For Canadians, all of the fallout should be positive, at least for the next couple of years.

    The first thing that should happen is that we should no longer be drawn into the debate in the United States. The health care system adopted by Congress has nothing in common with the public health care system in Canada.

    It is, in fact, almost entirely a private system, in that rather than create public health care insurance, it requires Americans to protect themselves with private insurance, with no public option for most people.

    We will continue to have our own health care debate in Canada, a debate that should benefit from a clear delineation between the issues we face here and those facing the far different and less efficient American system. Even before the expansion that should come with expanded insurance coverage, health care accounts for 17 per cent of all economic activity in the U.S. as measured by GDP compared to an estimated 12 per cent in Canada last year.

    The primary benefit for Canada from the passage of Obama's health care reform should be economic.

    While we have come through the current worldwide economic upheaval better than many other industrialized countries, including the U.S., we need our most important trading partner firing on all cylinders again.

    Bolstered by this important political victory, Obama will be in a much stronger position to tackle what should be his primary focus right now: putting Americans back to work.

    The health care reform bill would be a significant achievement for any American president.

    For this president at this time, it could turn out to be the impetus needed to get a term that started with great promise and hope back on track.

    Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
    I suppose this discussion is a moot point anyway.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #228
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I am interested to see where this goes in the next few years.

    As a Canadian, the health care situation in the states has been the reason for deciding I'll never move there, even if it would double my income eventually (and I think it would). There might be other reasons too, but I haven't looked into them since this is more than enough to keep me away.

    I just don't like the idea of piling financial stress on to the stress of being diagnosed with something like cancer - not to mention the stress is likely to worsen your health...

    Don't ask me what the "best" system is, or what America should do, but I like ours, despite its many flaws.
    -end of thread-

  9. #229
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    As a Canadian, the health care situation in the states has been the reason for deciding I'll never move there, even if it would double my income eventually (and I think it would).
    Exactly what medical condition do you have that is so expensive that doubling your income but losing public health care results in a net economic loss? And as a Canadian citizen, can't you just move back to Canada if whatever you fear occurring should occur? Whatever the advantages and disadvantages of our respective national systems, your rationale just doesn't seem to make any rational sense in terms of your own situation...

  10. #230
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Exactly what medical condition do you have that is so expensive that doubling your income but losing public health care results in a net economic loss? And as a Canadian citizen, can't you just move back to Canada if whatever you fear occurring should occur? Whatever the advantages and disadvantages of our respective national systems, your rationale just doesn't seem to make any rational sense in terms of your own situation...
    Fear doesn't make any rational sense. I understand perfectly what Randomnity is talking about, I wouldn't want to live with the stress of needing an higher income when I'm ill - exactly the moment when my income is likely to be at its lowest.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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