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  1. #211
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Please, just ban references to the USSR here. There is very little meaningful similarity between the developed nations and the USSR.
    I am not proposing a similarity in governments but a similarity in perspective.

    In the USSR, you had a job, you did it. That was it. Some people like this, some people missed it, even if they don't remember the hardship there. This seems insane to us. There must be something wrong with them.

    In the USA, well. There's a mindset here, I think, that it is better to suffer on your own without any responsibility taken for you rather than allow someone else to take responsibility for you and do it wrong, even if there's a chance the wrong might be better than suffering alone. And this seems insane to them, I'm sure. There must be something wrong with us.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #212
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I wonder how many here would have flipped out whether or not the bill passed...
    I didn't even notice they voted until it was over.

    In general, I just hate all the digs everyone likes to get in on each other, slandering each other's motivations for supporting or not supporting it. All the bickering and put-downs get old and only polarize things further.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #213
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    why would you take a boat when you can fly?
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  4. #214
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I can think of one right off the top of my head...shipping jobs overseas. Health insurance companies interests also are in conflict with the interests of the American people. Given time, I could make a pretty long list.
    1.) Policy influence from corporations relates to push and pull factors, not "shipping jobs overseas." Issues like free trade, minimum wage, red tape, taxes, etc. are all concrete, multidimensional policy issues with wide-ranging affects (which vary according to all other prevailing conditions), some of which benefit this group of corporations (and individual Americans), and some which benefit other groups of the same.

    2.) The interests of health insurance companies is not inherently the same as the interests of rival corporations.

  5. #215
    Oberon
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    Time to buy stock in Prudential.

  6. #216
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
    why would you take a boat when you can fly?
    Because sometimes traveling by boat is a better idea under existing conditions:

    YouTube - Iron Maiden - Flight of Icarus

  7. #217
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    When my brother was born -- I do not remember this, of course, because this was five years before I was born -- he was very sick. Very, very sick. But the health insurance wouldn't cover my family because we apparently had no "proof" that he was sick, no "proof" that this was necessary, even though he was pretty much dying. It took months and months and if my dad wasn't a lawyer he probably wouldn't have gotten any help from them at all, and we had health insurance.

    This bill is doing nothing to fix that, is it?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #218
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So, are you saying you don't want to live in America?

    Boat leaves in a few hours, dude. Hop on.
    I've thought about leaving plenty of times. It's not that easy.

    But my complaint was a bit different than that. There were enormous assumed premises in your statement. Perhaps wanting to live in America does not necessarily mean leaving it stagnate in the same position for eternity. Maybe someone can live in a America and still want to reform things, and maybe actually want universal healthcare.

    What you're doing is impicitly laying down your ideal of America as the only America that can be, and telling those who see it differently to leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I am not proposing a similarity in governments but a similarity in perspective.

    In the USSR, you had a job, you did it. That was it. Some people like this, some people missed it, even if they don't remember the hardship there. This seems insane to us. There must be something wrong with them.

    In the USA, well. There's a mindset here, I think, that it is better to suffer on your own without any responsibility taken for you rather than allow someone else to take responsibility for you and do it wrong, even if there's a chance the wrong might be better than suffering alone. And this seems insane to them, I'm sure. There must be something wrong with us.
    Well, according to RealClearPolitics's poll of poll, only about 50% of American opposed the bill. It does not distinguish reasons for opposing the bill, and I would not be surprised if maybe about 10% of the people who oppose it do so because it does not reform drastically enough. So that would be about 40% if my guess is correct. Not a huge cultural mandate.

    Our polls for quite some time have shown that a majority of American favor a universal healthcare system. It's just that particulars of this bill (many of which may have been totally made up by the Republicans) may be setting the people off.

    I think that this representation of American culture is a sort of conventional, mainstream representation that isn't necessarilly accurate. I mean, look at the developments of the 30s-40s, as well as the 60s. If all of this were really a core part of American pysche from day one, I'm not sure how such reforms would have passed, or why most of them would be enduringly popular.

    Americans, as a whole, probably do not sit comfortably in any of the political labels we love to throw around at the level of civic discourse.
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  9. #219
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    When my brother was born -- I do not remember this, of course, because this was five years before I was born -- he was very sick. Very, very sick. But the health insurance wouldn't cover my family because we apparently had no "proof" that he was sick, no "proof" that this was necessary, even though he was pretty much dying. It took months and months and if my dad wasn't a lawyer he probably wouldn't have gotten any help from them at all, and we had health insurance.

    This bill is doing nothing to fix that, is it?
    Not that I've heard; but then, like my congressmen, I haven't read the bill in its entirety.

  10. #220
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, according to RealClearPolitics's poll of poll, only about 50% of American opposed the bill. It does not distinguish reasons for opposing the bill, and I would not be surprised if maybe about 10% of the people who oppose it do so because it does not reform drastically enough. So that would be about 40% if my guess is correct. Not a huge cultural mandate.

    Our polls for quite some time have shown that a majority of American favor a universal healthcare system. It's just that particulars of this bill (many of which may have been totally made up by the Republicans) may be setting the people off.

    I think that this representation of American culture is a sort of conventional, mainstream representation that isn't necessarilly accurate. I mean, look at the developments of the 30s-40s, as well as the 60s. If all of this were really a core part of American pysche from day one, I'm not sure how such reforms would have passed, or why most of them would be enduringly popular.

    Americans, as a whole, probably do not sit comfortably in any of the political labels we love to throw around at the level of civic discourse.

    This is what I mean, there are so many who oppose because it does not do enough, so many angry that it does not do enough, when all the other countries are congratulating us on our "success".

    As I said, we're "insane." We do not want anyone taking responsibility if they cannot do it right -- one side thinks they can and one side thinks they can't. Go big or don't go at all, like on all the game shows when half the audience is shouting "Big money big money!" and the other screams "Take it home!"

    And no one outside of the US understands this and just thinks we hate poor people. *shrug*
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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