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  1. #191
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    This may have been pointed out before, but I'd like to say that Richard Nixon had a more radical health care proposal at one point (one he was working on with Ted Kennedy even!). Why Republicans get all emotional over this one makes zero sense to me, considering. The country couldn't have moved THAT far to the right to be that different from Nixon's America.
    The parties were not as ideological in Nixon's day - they were far more regional in flavor. You still had liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.

  2. #192
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, I'm not sure this bill is the answer, but philosophically, I do support the principles of universal health care.

    A Canadian knows part of what they pay in taxes feeds the health care system. Taxes are mandatory - municipal, provincial and federal; I have no choice but to pay taxes (unless I like to face the consequence of not paying). How is that so different?

    A for-profit system is fraught with difficulties (to reform), but perhaps competition will help keep prices reasonable.
    This bill has nothing to do with a single payer system. We arent paying taxes into a pool. Instead people who dont have insurance are being forced to buy insurance.

    Paying taxes is mandatory (I agree). Buying certain private goods...im not so certain about if you have no other alternative (you can choose an alternative of not driving, but can you choose the alternative of living without health insurance? apparently not)

  3. #193
    Senior Member Chunes's Avatar
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    Question:

    I know absolutely nothing about this bill.

    I am uninsured.

    What does this mean for me, if anything?
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
    Thoreau

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Unlike other nations, the USA can't go bankrupt because it owns, controls and prints the Reserve Currency of the World.

    So the USA can send other countries bankrupt but can't go bankrupt itself.

    The USA only has to print more of the Reserve Currency of the World, and the world picks up the tab.
    Ofcourse it can go bankrupt, it only takes a mass selling of dollars...with the shatter of confidence in the dollar, and US plummets.

  5. #195
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Preface: I'm being a Big Jerk and neglecting to read the previous 19 pages of posts before making my own post.

    I ask, even as someone who has read a great deal of Ayn Rand and feels there was much validity in many of her social views, what the heck is bad about making competent health coverage available to more people and banning the draconian restriction on "prior conditions" that has condemned millions to a lifetime of destitution?

    All I hear from the Republicans is nonsensical rhetoric and bizarre parallels drawn between Obama and Hitler. They're acting like the alpha male jerk you knew in college who wouldn't acknowledge that another guy's girlfriend was pretty just because he didn't like the guy in question.

    (And sorry, Ayn, but it's hard to pick yourself up by the bootstraps when you're hundreds of thousands of dollars in the hole because no health insurance companies would insure you and help cover your medical costs.)

    At any rate, if anyone opposed to the bill can offer a cogent explanation for his or her opposition, I'd be interested to read it. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic.)
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  6. #196
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    Ofcourse it can go bankrupt, it only takes a mass selling of dollars...with the shatter of confidence in the dollar, and US plummets.
    All of us need a Reserve Currency for trade. And the US dollar is by far the best Reserve Currency we have ever had. So take it from me, we are not going to sell US dollars, quite the opposite, we are going to keep them and lend them back to you.

    Your problem is purely psychological. You suffer from a national paranoia, probably as a result of your Revolution and Civil War. So I suggest you spend the dollars we lend you on a good therapist and you will feel better - 'cause everything is OK.

  7. #197
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    On the plus side, this bill may change Domino's and Lady Jaye's lives for the better.
    this is why i support the health care bill. i care about the lives of deserving people. that's not to say that the bill is perfect as nothing new usually is, but it's a step in the right direction.

    life expectancy
    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Preface: I'm being a Big Jerk and neglecting to read the previous 19 pages of posts before making my own post.

    I ask, even as someone who has read a great deal of Ayn Rand and feels there was much validity in many of her social views, what the heck is bad about making competent health coverage available to more people and banning the draconian restriction on "prior conditions" that has condemned millions to a lifetime of destitution?

    All I hear from the Republicans is nonsensical rhetoric and bizarre parallels drawn between Obama and Hitler. They're acting like the alpha male jerk you knew in college who wouldn't acknowledge that another guy's girlfriend was pretty just because he didn't like the guy in question.

    (And sorry, Ayn, but it's hard to pick yourself up by the bootstraps when you're hundreds of thousands of dollars in the hole because no health insurance companies would insure you and help cover your medical costs.)

    At any rate, if anyone opposed to the bill can offer a cogent explanation for his or her opposition, I'd be interested to read it. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic.)
    qft. it's the american way to reject change. obama is progressive and trying to move us towards the future but conservatives see that as us heading towards communism. since the past is gone, i'd rather move forward instead of our usual ass backward way.
    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Well, Saddam was hanged.

    In the end no proof of WMD, no connection between Iraq and 911

    Bin Laden in still at large. Says a lot.
    it surely does.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  8. #198
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunes View Post
    Question:

    I know absolutely nothing about this bill.

    I am uninsured.

    What does this mean for me, if anything?
    I found this summary on the Fox news site. Apparently they got it from The Wall Street Journal. It does not include stuff like projected tax increases or whether or not this will cause further recession, etc.

    What the Health Care Reform Bill Means for You

    The Wall Street Journal

    No more worrying about lifetime limits on health coverage, about whether your insurer will dump you when you get sick, or about whether your adult child will be booted off your plan when he turns 18. These are some of the changes that will kick in this year as part of the landmark health-overhaul legislation the U.S. Congress passed on Sunday.

    No more worrying about lifetime limits on health coverage, about whether your insurer will dump you when you get sick, or about whether your adult child will be booted off your plan when he turns 18.

    Kids will be able to stay on their parents' plans until they're 26 if they want and new insurance policies will have to cover certain preventive-care measures with no out-of-pocket cost to the consumer. These are some of the changes that will kick in this year as part of the landmark health-overhaul legislation the U.S. Congress passed on Sunday.

    Insurers also will be barred from denying coverage based on people's pre-existing health conditions for the first time, but children receive this benefit before adults.

    The ban on excluding kids because of illness takes effect six months after passage, but the full adult measure doesn't kick in until 2014. In the meantime, adults with pre-existing conditions who've been uninsured for at least six months can enroll in a temporary high-risk pool and receive subsidized premiums, starting three months after the bill's passage.

    Advocates for consumers and patients hailed the overhaul's passage.

    "While the new reforms won't solve all the problems in our nation's broken health-care system, they will go a long way toward achieving the goal of affordable, reliable health care for all Americans," Jim Guest, chief executive of Consumers Union, said in a statement after the vote.

    What You Can Expect

    Here's an outline of what you can expect depending on your employment, income, health and lifestyle factors. The exact timing of several provisions has yet to be determined.

    -- If you have employer-sponsored coverage: Any lifetime caps on how much your health plan will cover, often set between $1 million and $5 million, will be eliminated in both group and individual health plans starting later this year. Employers will have to disclose the cost of workers' health coverage on their W-2 tax forms starting in 2011.

    -- If you have a small business: Small firms starting this year may be eligible for new tax credits that would cover up to 35% of health-insurance premiums for businesses that have fewer than 25 employees. Workers at small businesses eventually will be able to buy policies on new health-insurance exchanges, where health benefits will have to meet a new minimum standard.

    -- If you're uninsured: Over the next 10 years, the bill will extend coverage to an estimated 32 million people who would otherwise lack coverage. It does this by expanding the government safety net and providing subsidies for low- and moderate-income people without employer health benefits to buy private plans on health-insurance exchanges, which are due to start in 2014. For the first time, all citizens and legal residents will have to buy health insurance--with financial aid from the government if they can't afford it, on a sliding scale up to 400% of the poverty line--or face a penalty starting in 2014, with some exceptions for low-income people. The amounts are set to rise annually, beginning with a fine of $95 or 1% of income, whichever is greater, and growing to as much as $695 or 2.5% of taxable income by 2016.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #199
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    And what is/are the interest(s) of the American people which the various interests of big business (which apparently don't inherently conflict with each other under this paradigm) are in direct conflict with?
    I can think of one right off the top of my head...shipping jobs overseas. Health insurance companies interests also are in conflict with the interests of the American people. Given time, I could make a pretty long list.

    Disputing the degree of power which corporations hold in relation to government actors is hardly the same thing as denying the power of corporations.
    But that's not what you're doing.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #200
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    2. A large % of the people that will now be covered are young people who CHOOSE to NOT buy health insurance because its too expensive. A 25 year old she be allowed to make this choice. People that make the comparison to car insurance fail to realize that anyone can opt out of DRIVING, however, this bill essentially makes it illegal to live without buying health insurance. Its like we are charging for air.

    what this bill has done is the equivalent of:

    "We need universal pizza delivery, and therefore we need cheaper pizza delivery...therefore anyone who doesnt get delivery will be fined $2000 a year!" Ya...universal by decree...how exactly does that solve the cost issue??? it doesnt. like car insurance, this bill will probably make health costs go up, as more people will now be feeding into the same system as before.
    I'm one of those young uninsured people. I've never had health insurance (since I moved out of my parents' home at 17) because I didn't want to pay for it. But there are other things to consider besides how much money is being fed into the system. Unfortunately, this bill doesn't really address those issues, at least as far as I have heard. What we really need is a national medical database so care can be better coordinated, but that idea runs into some serious privacy issues.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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