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  1. #11
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    How about the notion that things might still be far from perfect but at least Obama has his foot in the door by getting a universal health care bill to be passed? A bit like Civil Rights legislation, it also took years to finetune it but once Lyndon B Johnson had signed the Civil Rights Bill there was really no going back.
    I would agree, but I think there's a crucial difference between civil rights and healthcare. Civil rights was a prima facie moral issue, and the legislation aimed to ensure that all citizens of the nation had equality of civil rights under the law, not just in theory but in practice. This is justice, a legitimate function of government.

    The health care bill, in contrast, involves the administration of a new federal program that will funnel vast amounts of federal money... where, exactly? Unlike civil rights legislation, this bill does not speak to any clear moral issue; it just shuffles dollars around; not a legitimate function of government, to my way of thinking. Having seen public housing and public schools, I strongly suspect that this bill will do more harm than good to the majority of people involved.

    ...and if it matters, I'm employed by Big Pharma, and I stand by what I say.

    On the plus side, this bill may change Domino's and Lady Jaye's lives for the better.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I would agree, but I think there's a crucial difference between civil rights and healthcare. Civil rights was a prima facie moral issue, and the legislation aimed to ensure that all citizens of the nation had equality of civil rights under the law, not just in theory but in practice. This is justice, a legitimate function of government.

    The health care bill, in contrast, involves the administration of a new federal program that will funnel vast amounts of federal money... where, exactly? Unlike civil rights legislation, this bill does not speak to any clear moral issue; it just shuffles dollars around; not a legitimate function of government, to my way of thinking. Having seen public housing and public schools, I strongly suspect that this bill will do more harm than good to the majority of people involved.

    ...and if it matters, I'm employed by Big Pharma, and I stand by what I say.

    On the plus side, this bill may change Domino's and Lady Jaye's lives for the better.
    I do think universal health care is a very moral issue, in its essence it's all about helping the disadvantaged, the destitute, the poor the dying instead of letting money and power win. (Again obviously from a European point of view it's unbelievable to us that something as basic as universal health care hasn't already been passed decades ago in the States. To us the right to have basic health care even if you are not rich is seen not as a luxury but as a basic human right.)

    Of course the question is to what degree this bill is really going to help, how effective it is actually going to be in practice. One can have the best, most moral motives and still achieve very little.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of the bill. I worry that it will worsen the situation. If we're inevitably headed this direction, I would have rather gone straight to a single payer system.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #14
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I'm happy.

  5. #15
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Yay for Socialism!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    I do think universal health care is a very moral issue, in its essence it's all about helping the disadvantaged, the destitute, the poor the dying instead of letting money and power win. (Again obviously from a European point of view it's unbelievable to us that something as basic as universal health care hasn't already been passed decades ago in the States. To us the right to have basic health care even if you are not rich is seen not as a luxury but as a basic human right.)
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #16
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    All I am thinking is that this bill had better fucking be good because all this discussion is making me sick and my family can barely afford to buy groceries right now.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Yay for Socialism!!

    +1
    It's not nearly socialist enough.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #18
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Baby steps, Magic, baby steps.
    We'll have you singing L'Internationale in no time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...On the plus side, this bill may change Domino's and Lady Jaye's lives for the better.
    True... and my son's life as well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    How about the notion that things might still be far from perfect but at least Obama has his foot in the door by getting a universal health care bill to be passed? A bit like Civil Rights legislation, it also took years to finetune it but once Lyndon B Johnson had signed the Civil Rights Bill there was really no going back.

    Since I am European I am just wondering if there is anyone on here who has a really informed opinion on that, how much does this bill really achieve? (Also as a European I am a bit shocked how some Americans can be so opposed to the concept of universal health care, we had it in many countries for decades and though it is not perfect I most certainly would rather get ill in Europe than in the US.)
    @bold: agreed and well-said.

    @bold-purple: As a Canadian I feel the same way. That's not to say our system is perfect; costs are a real factor, and we pay higher taxes in Canada than in the US. We wouldn't have even contemplated living here in the US for a second though if my husband didn't have a solid health-care plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    To us the right to have basic health care even if you are not rich is seen not as a luxury but as a basic human right.
    Agreed as well.

    My opinion: it is a step in a long process, but I think it is a step in the right direction.

    It has been interesting for me coming to the US from Canada - the doctor's office I go now is very posh compared to Canada. Some people here mistakenly think EVERYTHING is covered under Canadian health care (dentist is not; Rx are not; you still need a health care plan to help with those costs, from your employer or you can purchase it for yourself as an individual, but costly.)

    But for example, a brand-name medication I take that costs $90 in Canada (if I had no Rx insurance) costs $260 here - these are the discrepancies that make me suspect that a great deal of the money involved lines the pockets of the profession and the periphery of medicine itself. In two visits to the doctor here, I saw no fewer than three pharmaceutical reps peddling their wares ... there certainly is a less "commerical" feel to medicine in Canada.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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