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  1. #181
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    None of us are conscripted - we are all professional soldiers serving the national interest.

    And we believe in the USA Dollar, so it is in our interest to defend it.

    Of course we have a patina of idealism, just as the Dollar Trusts in God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The monolithic business interest is the USA Dollar.

    And now the USA Dollar is the Reserve Currency of the World.
    Annuit coeptis.

    Novus ordo seclorum.

    The status of the dollar as reserve currency is still secure even after petroleum, however. Our ability to starve a billion people to death kinda guarantees that.

    No wonder Iran wants nuclear weapons so badly.

  2. #182
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    This wasn't in the winter, this was in April, late April, even. I barely wore a coat.

    I don't know where I visited, exactly. We just went wherever the bus took us.
    This happens across Canada. A lot of trash gathers up over the winter. April is generally when the last of the melt is whisked away, and leaves behind perhaps five months garbage at once.

    Summer is much prettier.

  3. #183
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    It's a very basic thing.

    We drive. We see it every day. The non-profits take such good care of us while our cars hobble along on government-built roads.

    You do it every day, too, every year of your life, and see how it seeps into your mind when you're not looking.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #184
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    You seem to be missing my point, but ah well.

    I've heard it's pretty bad in Toronto. Only in outside Ontario does it actually work.
    Be specific then.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #185
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Be specific then.
    I still remember the shock when they finished the highway construction not only on time, but under budget to boot. It nearly gave everyone a heart attack and some thought they made a deal with old scratch to do it!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #186
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You are reading in a contempt that doesn't exist. Your attitude is baffling to me. I am enjoying being in the US very much; but people condemn what they do not know without proper education on the issue at hand. People say that universal health care is bad; I ask them why, and they say something like "it's gonna cost a lot of money" ... if you have better answers than that I am excited to hear them.

    I used a brand-name medication to illustrate that I wasn't comparing generics to brand-name, since generics have a lower cost. The generic of that particular medication costs $45 in Canada; don't know if you can get the generic version here.

    But that's not the point. As I said, Rx medication of any type is NOT covered by the Canadian Health Act unless you are admitted to the hospital and use it while you are there.

    I am certain I know far more about the US and your health care system than you do about Canada (or any other countries for that matter).

    What I do believe is that the promise of making money is what fuels pharmaceutical research, and the high costs of litigation here in the US are what also contribute to the costs shouldered by the average person who uses said medications.
    1. tort reform helps costs. but if you think litigation makes more than a small share responsible, then you might want to remember how the price setter vs price taker dealio plays out with oligopolies...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Do you think a health care bill here is a compromise to individual freedom? What about posterity? Does a lack of health care benefit the generations to come? Or compromise it?

    How can one have true freedom if they cannot access a basic level of health? It is tantamount to being uneducated. Why then must everyone go to school? Do you think that is a violation of the constitution as well?

    These are honest and curious questions, so please don't read anything else into them.
    2. A large % of the people that will now be covered are young people who CHOOSE to NOT buy health insurance because its too expensive. A 25 year old she be allowed to make this choice. People that make the comparison to car insurance fail to realize that anyone can opt out of DRIVING, however, this bill essentially makes it illegal to live without buying health insurance. Its like we are charging for air.

    what this bill has done is the equivalent of:

    "We need universal pizza delivery, and therefore we need cheaper pizza delivery...therefore anyone who doesnt get delivery will be fined $2000 a year!" Ya...universal by decree...how exactly does that solve the cost issue??? it doesnt. like car insurance, this bill will probably make health costs go up, as more people will now be feeding into the same system as before.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSprout View Post
    Lowtech Redneck:

    First, not even the mandatory purchase of health insurance is blatantly unconstitutional because it arguably falls under the Commerce Clause (in terms of powers of the federal government), which has been used to force individuals to engage in commerce by the Supreme Court (Wickard v. Filburn, for instance). Moreover, even if the mandated purchase of health care is determined to be unconstitutional, it would not strike down the entire bill, only that clause. As for the spending, no tax expenditure since the New Deal has been deemed an abuse of the powers of Congress - they are permitted to tax and spend to promote the general welfare. That's not to say it won't be contested - several state attorneys general are poised to do so, but it is not likely to prevent this bill from being implemented. It is far from a 'clear cut' violation of the Constitution or the powers of Congress.
    See my reference about car insurance. And yes it would ruin this bill, because part of the way they plan on paying for all of this is by forcing all of the 18 to 30 year olds to start buying the health insurance they dont want or need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    If we could rely on people to always act compassionately and in the best interests of their fellow man then we could do without government altogether.
    Nice quote, but how far are you willing to take it? It works great for laws against murder. Would you feel the same if that quote justified being forced into contracts that contest your free will? contracts that are for "the best interests of their fellow man"? What if it was a contract forcing you to work as a janitor for the rest of your life?

  7. #187
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    what this bill has done is the equivalent of:

    "We need universal pizza delivery, and therefore we need cheaper pizza delivery...therefore anyone who doesnt get delivery will be fined $2000 a year!" Ya...universal by decree...how exactly does that solve the cost issue??? it doesnt. like car insurance, this bill will probably make health costs go up, as more people will now be feeding into the same system as before.
    Yes, I'm not sure this bill is the answer, but philosophically, I do support the principles of universal health care.

    A Canadian knows part of what they pay in taxes feeds the health care system. Taxes are mandatory - municipal, provincial and federal; I have no choice but to pay taxes (unless I like to face the consequence of not paying). How is that so different?

    A for-profit system is fraught with difficulties (to reform), but perhaps competition will help keep prices reasonable.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #188
    /X\(:: :: )/X\ BlueSprout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    People that make the comparison to car insurance fail to realize that anyone can opt out of DRIVING, however, this bill essentially makes it illegal to live without buying health insurance. Its like we are charging for air.
    I also encourage you to see Wickard v. Filburn (in which the SC forced a farmer to buy excess wheat on the open market and upheld the regulation of his personal agricultural activities because they impacted interstate commerce) and other cases where the Supreme Court has mandated the activity of individuals because it impacts commerce. There will definitely be distinctions between Wickard, Gonzales v. Raich, et al and any case that may be brought regarding the mandatory purchase of insurance. For example, Wickard had to actively grow wheat to be penalized - making your example an apt one except when it comes to taxation vs fine (see below). However, the precedent of applying the Commerce Clause so broadly sheds doubt on any claim of the absolute, unquestionable unconstitutionality of the bill or any certainty of its defeat in court. I only argue that the conclusion that it is unconstitutional is not as clear as LTR indicated and that it will not likely be simply shut down entirely in the court system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    See my reference about car insurance. And yes it would ruin this bill, because part of the way they plan on paying for all of this is by forcing all of the 18 to 30 year olds to start buying the health insurance they dont want or need.
    It would largely depend on how many actually opted out of paying. A good deal of people don't pay income taxes each year, either. Interestingly, the penalty for failing to comply is actually an increase in taxes, not an outright fine like with car insurance, which complicates it somewhat, since Congress' power to *tax* in matters affecting interstate commerce is pretty well secured by precedent.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, I live under universal health care and I couldn't be happier.

    I have free access to my General Practitioner five days a week, with no waiting time.

    I receive the best in Specialist care. My pharmaceuticals are subsidised, along with spectacles, dentistry, psychologist and physiotherapy.

    I am well treated at all times and enjoy my interactions with the health system.
    My cats also live in captivity, and they too appear quite happy with it.

  10. #190
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    This may have been pointed out before, but I'd like to say that Richard Nixon had a more radical health care proposal at one point (one he was working on with Ted Kennedy even!). Why Republicans get all emotional over this one makes zero sense to me, considering. The country couldn't have moved THAT far to the right to be that different from Nixon's America.

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