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  1. #141
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    We didn't hang Saddam Victor.
    Gosh no.

    It's just that Saddam was hung in a fully occupied country.

    And the occupiers are fully responsible for law and order in an occupied country.

    And so a reasonable person might conclude that the occupiers hanged Saddam.

    Saddam made the terrible mistake of trying to sell his oil in Euros rather than USA Dollars, the Reserve Currency of the World.

    If Saddam had succeeded in selling his oil in Euros, Saudi Arabia may have followed suit, and then the rest of the oil producing world.

    This would have led to a change in the Reserve Currency of the World. And the USA would now be exposed to bankruptcy.

    Saddam was a clear and present danger, not only to the USA, but to the world's financial system.

    So we hanged him.

  2. #142
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    Well, Saddam was hanged.

    In the end no proof of WMD, no connection between Iraq and 911

    Bin Laden in still at large. Says a lot.

  3. #143
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    The health care bill that passed is hardly what our nation needed.

    The poor and chronically ill get HMO-level health care from Medicare and Medicaid with low deductibles.

    Do you know what would happen if they tried to slap a standard indemnituy policy on the recipients of an entitlement program? Total political chaos and all elected officials that voted for that thrown out of office, that's what.

    So, how are we expected to be thankful that we got slapped with a mandatory shitty level of care that we can be fined for if we don't carry?

    Employers are just going to pass the buck for having to ensure compensation plans are sufficient for individuals to carry that burden, thus making products/services more expensive for consumers and businesses alike, and providiing even more energy for the uptick of inflation.

    The simplest solution would have been to allow uninsured individuals to "buy-in" to their state's Medicaid HMO system. They would receive a good managed care policy with a monthly rate between $100-$200 (about 80% of each state's population) and NO DEDUCTIBLES as experienced in an indemnity plan.

    This would not even hurt the private sector, as the plans that participate are private carriers that also have a Medicaid HMO product, whose enrollment would increase over current/historical levels, and thus increase cash flow and profitability consider the residual nature of mandatory enrollment for all citizens.

    But that would be too easy. There would be no opportunity to earmark funds for bridges, junkets, or other common pork barrel items if we did it that way. Heaven help us if we as a nation ever listen to common sense.
    My husband did a lot of research on this and even sent a letter to our senator, Mr Baucus, with some suggestions. He said we currently spend 30% of our budget on Medicare, and it's not even an extremely comprehensive service, and forces recipients to carry ancillary plans to pick up the slack. Forcing people to buy in with this plan protects the insurance companies from the influx of only unhealthy people buying insurance. But they could have done exactly what you suggested, my husband suggested (and many others suggested, I'm sure), allowing for opt-in voluntary insurance, and capping a buy in period for pre-existing conditions to a couple of months, so people wouldn't just clamor in when they got sick. There were ways to do it and do it better. I'm sorry to say that the motivations, imo, were dark and financially related, especially in light of the recent supreme court finance overrulings which allows corporations free rein in political campaign contributions. :rolli:

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post

    I think the current system is broken, but I don't think the plan we passed is a panacea. I think it's seriously flawed, and it does little to address the main problem with the current system, which in my opinion is the legal racketeering engaged in by health insurance companies. I also think we only get one shot at this, unlike civil rights. I'm very pessimistic.
    I see your Ni and I raise you one. Totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Until the 60's the US and Canada shared the same kind of system and similar costs. It is interesting to see how the differing philosophies and systems created to manage health care changed our experiences so distinctly.

    Here is a great read for those who are interested. A Canadian doctor diagnoses U.S. healthcare
    The caricature of 'socialized medicine' is used by corporate interests to confuse Americans and maintain their bottom lines instead of patients' health.


    I guess the disappointing part is that it doesn't look like the bill passed has taken the lessons already learned by other countries and used them to make something better. When we moved here, someone said to us that we had socialist medicine in Canada (never heard anyone ever say that before) and these phrases are used as some kind of propoganda against universal health care in general.

    That being said, with the legislation passed, costs associated will be up-front and people will have the benefit of competition and choice, just as they do for other forms of insurance. That supposedly should keep the financial burden to an individual controllable ...
    I am so pessimistic about my country anymore because it has been dominated by big business, and influenced by big business, for so long now. The corporate domination (i.e capitalist system) is so pervasive, and the government so dependent upon it now, that to do anything free from corruption is just nearly impossible, as this recent debate shows. No one wants to lose their money. People's health never should have been a multi-billion (trillion?) dollar business to begin with. Republicans cannot see the forest for the trees here, because it's been all chopped down by big business anyway, and what you are seeing is a hologram of something that doesn't even exist. It has to be totally reinvented in a new, non-corrupt way. But that is not going to happen anytime soon, unfortunately.

    I saw that Japan makes insurance companies Not-for-profits. Can we not take a clue from anyone?
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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I see your Ni and I raise you one. Totally agree.
    It's not Ni. I said the same thing. I am sorry to make the comment but I keep seeing us do this on this board, oh you agree with me, it must be due to this function or that function. It's making Victor sound like he is onto something when he calls us all cult members.

  5. #145
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    It's not Ni. I said the same thing. I am sorry to make the comment but I keep seeing us do this on this board, oh you agree with me, it must be due to this function or that function. It's making Victor sound like he is onto something when he calls us all cult members.
    Well, maybe you are using Ni.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Money is self-aware now? What is this machine, and what political goals does it have?
    The machine is a mercantile machine. It is called Mercantilism.

    And the aim of Mercantilism is to own, control and print the Reserve Currency of the World.

    This confers the advantage of never going bankrupt but being able to send other countries bankrupt.

    The USA has achieved this mercantile aim and would prefer to fight than abandon it.

    We ride on the back of the USA Dollar, so we fight alongside you.

  7. #147
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The machine is a mercantile machine. It is called Mercantilism.

    And the aim of Mercantilism is to own, control and print the Reserve Currency of the World.

    This confers the advantage of never going bankrupt but being able to send other countries bankrupt.

    The USA has achieved this mercantile aim and would prefer to fight than abandon it.

    We ride on the back of the USA Dollar, so we fight alongside you.
    Victor, when you're conscripted into a war you don't believe in, I believe tradition is to flee to Canada
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #148
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I saw that Japan makes insurance companies Not-for-profits. Can we not take a clue from anyone?
    That's pretty much the case with any UHC nation that bothers to have insurance companies at all.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #149
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I appreciate that America is a nation that values the individual over the collective. I respect that freedom to live your life as you choose is fundamental to the national ethos.

    However people forget that the belief in individual freedom in America is based on a best case scenario and assumes that all Americans are equal. That freedom of choice can be restricted by many circumstances - poverty being a major one. The 'freedoms' and 'choices' the poor in America have in regards to health care are false ones. How can you choose between insurance you can't afford and risking your family's health and financial future? Where is the freedom in that choice?

    I have been told by an American that the present (well, past) system provides the best care. Really what she means is it provides the best care for some people but limited to no care for many others. How are the individual rights of the poor being respected when you deny them a basic necessity due to, what is likely to be, an pure accident of birth? What this appears to be is a case where the rights of the wealthy are valued over those of the poor.

    Even if that 'best care' is to be lost it would still be worth it. To be honest, I prefer that ideal care for the few be sacrificed for mediocre care for all. I don't want to live in a society where whether you live or die is decided by how rich you are.

    Anyway, I have been following this issue for years and must say how wonderful it is to see real progress! I just want to say well done to the Americans. This is a special moment in US history and you all should feel proud. Regardless of what you believe, I truly hope you will see and feel the benefits of the new bill; that it will lead to a fairer and better system for everyone; and that it will help to truly bring greater liberty and autonomy to all Americans

  10. #150
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    The United States, if anyone, has the money.
    Really bad excuse. Even third world countries have Universal Healthcare.
    Gotta close the gaps between the classes a little, though.
    If one is big and strong, one has a responsibility towards others.
    Same goes for wealthy.
    Raise taxes and build a better nation for everyone.
    Also, it's kinda expensive to fight wars and maintain bases all over the globe for no apparent reason.
    Well, technically, we have more deficit than liquid funds.

    While I agree that wars are expensive, perhaps we should have concerned ourselves with resolving the issue that is tying up our liquidity, before moving on. Healthcare reform, in a more useful and constitutionally acceptable form would have actually had a fighting chance in legislation if we had only not allowed so many loose ends. We are stretching ourselves too thin here.
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