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  1. #11
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    What possible explanation can there be other than insanity?
    What possible explanation is there for any serial murder besides "insanity"? I don't think any serial killers should be able to get off on that basis. As for what good jailing her would do for society, it would uphold the principle that human life has inherent value, and illegally taking such life will therefore have appropriately severe consequences. In other words, punishment is sufficient purpose by itself for such crimes.

  2. #12
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    In Germany she would most probably sit in preventive detention in Hagenberg, where she will be isolated from any human contact for forever. She is probably visited by therapists in the cellar cells in Hagenberg with one window to the jailyard she will never be allowed to enter.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #13
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    And then after 25 years one has served the maxium sentence there is and after that one will go into preventive detention, which can go on till the end of ones life.
    Does the German legislature(s) not have the authority to change sentencing guidelines? If they do, then bureaucracy is no excuse.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    You have to read it right, its a bureaucracy thing. 15 years is the maximum sentence one can stay in prison, when convicted with a life sentence. After that time one has the opportunity to ask for probation, which will be declined in this case. And then after 25 years one has served the maxium sentence there is and after that one will go into preventive detention, which can go on till the end of ones life.

    So she will never see daylight again, the formulation of 15 years is just a bureaucracy thing that even applies to baby killers, cause the foundation sentence of a democracy is "Under the law everyone shall be treated equally" :/
    Do you have a source for this? Just briefly looking up France and Germany's systems suggests it is just 15 years, because it's not considered murder.

    French case: "Prosecutor Eric Bouillard had sought a 16-year prison sentence for Lesage with no early release before half the term was served."

    German case: "Hilschenz had originally been charged with murder but the court reduced this to manslaughter before her trial began because it did not feel there was enough proof that she had tried to conceal her crimes."

  5. #15
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    In Germany she would most probably sit in preventive detention in Hagenberg, where she will be isolated from any human contact for forever. She is probably visited by therapists in the cellar cells in Hagenberg with one window to the jailyard she will never be allowed to enter.
    In other words, her continued incarceration is dependent on a bureaucrats judgement; just sentence her to life without parole, and be done with it.

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    You have to read it right, its a bureaucracy thing. 15 years is the maximum sentence one can stay in prison, when convicted with a life sentence. After that time one has the opportunity to ask for probation, which will be declined in this case. And then after 25 years one has served the maxium sentence there is and after that one will go into preventive detention, which can go on till the end of ones life.

    So she will never see daylight again, the formulation of 15 years is just a bureaucracy thing that even applies to baby killers, cause the foundation sentence of a democracy is "Under the law everyone shall be treated equally" :/
    Thanks for the reframe. A number of us are operating under our [sometimes vague] understanding of US law, so knowing legal context elsewhere is important here.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    What possible explanation is there for any serial murder besides "insanity"? I don't think any serial killers should be able to get off on that basis. As for what good jailing her would do for society, it would uphold the principle that human life has inherent value, and illegally taking such life will therefore have appropriately severe consequences. In other words, punishment is sufficient purpose by itself for such crimes.
    Well, see above...

    ... but the difference in behavioral motivation between a serial murderer (an adult who preys on adults) is a lot different that the behavioral motivation between a case like this. I'd say someone like Andrea Yates or someone suffering postpartum depression is "insane" in a way that a serial killer is not.

    I don't know if she should be punished less, because I do not know the details of the case or where she was coming from; but in any case I think the generalization is sloppy. They are different critters.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I have a friend, who is a lawayer, who once explained the system to me, but I am no expert on it. Here's a good overview: Life imprisonment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There is an issue I remember about when a life is considered a life, cause if you abort a baby its murder aswell in that sentence.

    Therefore I think this case would fall under the jurisdiction of "crimes against humanity" and the maxium sentence she can serve is 15 years. After that her case will be reviewed by a court and no german law on earth will give her probabtion. She will then be imprisoned for another 10 years, having every year the opportunity to ask for probation which will be declined 10 times.

    And after that she will enter preventive detention for the rest of her life, with no chance for rehabilitation. If it were anyhow differently this would have caused massive protestations in the german population.

    When she is sentenced with preventive detention she will have no chance to serve that in a mental health hospital.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #18
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I recently saw a case on TV about a guy who murdererd a man who had raped his daughter. He already served 20 years and asked for probabtion every year, which was declined. they didnt say on television how vicious the act of murder was but even in that case there will probably only be 1 out of 1000 cases in which the parameters are in favor for the accused to not serve preventive detention for the rest of his life
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Do you have a source for this? Just briefly looking up France and Germany's systems suggests it is just 15 years, because it's not considered murder.
    As Erm hints at, what's the connection between German and French law? You're quoting German law, but she was French.

    (Sorry, I'm detail challenged and rather reading backwards through the thread... I had erroneously assumed if you'd bother bringing court precedent to bear, you would only bring court precedent from the same country... doh.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    But you are right, I looked it up in the overview above, 15 years are the minium of the maxium you can get before you are allowed to request parole. The other numbers are 18 years and 26 years, with the latter one probably being given to nazi war crimes
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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