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  1. #31
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So you believe in natural rights? Who defends these natural rights?
    That is an excellent question. One I have no answer for, because my first inclination is to say s/he who can, but then really, who decides? Why them? I don't want the responsibility of deciding the life and death of any being, in all honesty. I'd imagine many wouldn't either.

    What are your thoughts, if you don't mind my asking?
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    First of all we need to both take the emotion out of this, and discuss it logically.

    I don't think we are looking this issue through the same eyes. That is the problem here.

    Okay, let me take the word human out of the equation. Everything on this planet has a "right" to reproduce. I'm not speaking about pop psychology either. To me it is biology. A biological fact.

    In my mind I see a planet teeming with life. Everything thrives when it can and dies when it cannot. It moves in cycles. Everything is a cycle of birth and then destruction. All this life has the same "right," which is to propagate its species, to have as many offspring as possible. That is how life continues in the natural world. That is what I meant by a "human right." I could have said the right that "anything has on this planet that falls into the slightly murky definition of life."

    I'm not exactly talking about the morality of this planet being strangled by humans because of over population. That is another matter, which I don't care to discuss in this thread.
    Where in the heck did you get the idea that" Everything on this planet has a "right" to reproduce"?

    It defies basic laws of nature

    The most basic law of nature is that every living thing struggles to reproduce, in the face of sometimes overwhelming competition, outside and within the species. That struggle, is often just that, a constant battle to survive stay alive and pass on one's genes. In fact, the one's that pass on their genes are THE WINNERS. Winners who earned the right to breed. It was not bestowed apoun them, socialist style, as a right, but was in fact, a reward.

    Human rights are an invention of civilization, by minds far far removed from their natural states, after breeding many many generations in captivity(civilization).

    Trapped in the woods, looking at trees, unable to see the forest

  3. #33
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape View Post
    Where in the heck did you get the idea that" Everything on this planet has a "right" to reproduce"?

    It defies basic laws of nature

    The most basic law of nature is that every living thing struggles to reproduce, in the face of sometimes overwhelming competition, outside and within the species. That struggle, is just that, a constant battle to survive stay alive and pass on one's genes. In fact, the one's that pass on their genes are THE WINNERS. Winners who earned the right to breed. It was not bestowed apon them, as a right, but was in fact, a reward for struggle.

    Human rights are an invention of civilization, by minds far far removed from their natural states, after breeding many many generations in captivity(civilization).

    Trapped in the woods, looking at trees, unable to see the forest
    I feel we are speaking different languages.

    To me, the "right" means that everything has equal chance at some point. Just by being born. Take out the sick, they die. Take out the weak, they die. You are left with what you are speaking about, the "winners."

    However, in the beginning, for just a moment in time, everything had the same "right." The circumstances that actually determine who indeed does successfully reproduce, is not what I'm talking about. I'm speaking about that moment of equality shared by all life.
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    I feel we are speaking different languages.

    To me, the "right" means that everything has equal chance at some point. Just by being born. Take out the sick, they die. Take out the weak, they die. You are left with what you are speaking about, the "winners."

    However, in the beginning, for just a moment in time, everything had the same "right." The circumstances that actually determine who indeed does successfully reproduce, is not what I'm talking about. I'm speaking about that moment of equality shared by all life.
    That equality would never occur as each organism has individual DNA make up and some DNA is winner DNA and some loser. Environments and circumstances born into would also dispel any potential equalities.

    The socialist equality utopia is a dream, dreamt often by well intentioned NF's and their warm and loving souls. Bless their hearts.

    But there is a time and place for everything and right now, in Haiti, absolute compassion is needed to end suffering.

  5. #35
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape View Post
    That equality would never occur as each organism has individual DNA make up and some DNA is winner DNA and some loser. Environments and circumstances born into would also dispel any potential equalities.
    But it does. It does occur. Even with less than stellar DNA, which in all honesty is not necessarily the end all be all. It's a large portion, but by no means the the only factor to determine a "winner."

    I see your point, but I don't think you see mine. I don't know how else to explain it... Unless the organism has a biological abnormality that prevents it from reproducing, then it has the "right." That is what we are talking about, correct?

    The socialist equality utopia is a dream, dreamt often by well intentioned NF's and their warm and loving souls. Bless their hearts.

    But there is a time and place for everything and right now, in Haiti, absolute compassion is needed to end suffering.
    Compassion is useful, but so is logic. There needs to be balance.
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  6. #36
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape View Post
    Please explain this human right. Is it part of nature? Is it included in the laws of nature? Can it be observed and proven by scientific method?

    Or is it simply some theoretical creation, created in the halls of Western academia, getting up on the pop coz radar for 40 years or so, more recently cause de jour?
    No. It's something we agree is a right thing. Not only that, but we're willing to enforce that agreement amongst ourselves with guns.

    Is it a label recently invented and millions will suffer because this recently invented, in suburbia, moral construct, grasped firmly by people who have never truly suffered, will rise up to block any practical efforts at ending the suffering, because it may challenge an idea/theory that they recently created in their minds, in their world, with it's peculiar moral codes, that they invented, for their little world. Meanwhile great suffering occurs

    The suburban Western world and narcissistic personality disorder
    If this guy's legit...

    1) He's from India/China and wants to justify his country's barbaric sterilization policies

    2) He's never walked a mile in anyone else's shoes.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape View Post
    Maybe read the post again, really concentrate

    My post in it's essence is comment on subjective versus objective. Ironically, the post above is a good example of a subjective based, personal attack.My post you were referring to were not attacks but were in fact parts of humorous stories and kooky business ideas.

    It would seem you were trying to misrepresent my comments and it would appear you were malicious in intent, making your post a personal attack. Is trolling, for the most part, someone who enters multiple threads and makes personal attacks on another member? I think most would agree it is.

    So you may want to "knock off the hypocrisy", as it makes you appear unhealthy. Maybe try and play nice or do not play at
    Again, your post displays more hypocrisy.
    At least you're consistent. Attaboy!

  8. #38
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    onemoretime- No. It's something we agree is a right thing. Not only that, but we're willing to enforce that agreement amongst ourselves with guns.
    When you say "we're willing to enforce", that immediately creates a subjective paradigm, which creates a conflict where none existed, defending a concept invented by "we're". It is a dangerous narcissistic paradigm.

    Have you the ability to view the latest lefty case de jour from an objective perspective, or has the cool aid digested, the constructs cemented in place and the paradigm rigid?

    If this guy's legit...

    1) He's from India/China and wants to justify his country's barbaric sterilization policies

    2) He's never walked a mile in anyone else's shoes.
    I've been to Haiti and have seen the problems first hand. I walked alongside and sometimes in the footsteps of Haitians, how bout you?

    You are exhibiting what is called moral superiority from the suburbs, a very dangerous mindset that can cause great suffering for those that struggle hard in their daily lives, far from the suburbs. Karl Marx was a kid from the suburbs(relative to the time)

    BTW

    What does barbaric mean?

  9. #39
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape View Post
    When you say "we're willing to enforce", that immediately creates a subjective paradigm, which creates a conflict where none existed, defending a concept invented by "we're". It is a dangerous narcissistic paradigm.

    Have you the ability to view the latest lefty case de jour from an objective perspective, or has the cool aid digested, the constructs cemented in place and the paradigm rigid?
    The conflict exists. That you're unwilling to recognize it bespeaks the narcissism you're so eloquently projecting onto me. Humans characterize everyone into an ingroup and an outgroup. This is as close to a hard law for human social cognition as one can find.

    Tell me, who gets to determine whether someone is worthy of reproduction or not? If you were selected for sterilization, would you accept it, or rebel?

    I've been to Haiti and have seen the problems first hand. I walked alongside and sometimes in the footsteps of Haitians, how bout you?

    You are exhibiting what is called moral superiority from the suburbs, a very dangerous mindset that can cause great suffering for those that struggle hard in their daily lives, far from the suburbs. Karl Marx was a kid from the suburbs(relative to the time)

    BTW

    What does barbaric mean?
    I haven't been to Haiti, but I've been in some of the most desperate portions of Guatemala. You know what gets them through? Their friends and families. Sterilization takes a person's future family away from them. Tell me, without a heavy social safety net, who will take care of these people as they grow old? Who will provide the comfort and intimacy needed to ward off the twin demons of loneliness and despair? If you've ever been truly lonely, you know that death is a kinder option.

    And to speak of moral authority - feel free to sterilize yourself (and no, not the namby-pamby reversible vasectomy) at any time. Overpopulation is a global problem, and you'd be doing your part to solve it, rather than sitting on the sidelines philosophizing.

    Barbaric simply means of the tendency to use hard power when other forms of power are available.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape View Post
    Where in the heck did you get the idea that" Everything on this planet has a "right" to reproduce"?

    It defies basic laws of nature

    The most basic law of nature is that every living thing struggles to reproduce, in the face of sometimes overwhelming competition, outside and within the species. That struggle, is often just that, a constant battle to survive stay alive and pass on one's genes. In fact, the one's that pass on their genes are THE WINNERS. Winners who earned the right to breed. It was not bestowed apoun them, socialist style, as a right, but was in fact, a reward.

    Human rights are an invention of civilization, by minds far far removed from their natural states, after breeding many many generations in captivity(civilization).

    Trapped in the woods, looking at trees, unable to see the forest

    Ummm...there's no scientific proof that these people are GENETICALLY inferior or that their DNA is any less valuable than yours or mine. You are basing your theory of forced sterilization on social conditions, not biology, so stop acting like you know so much about natural selection.


    Should these people be educated about reproduction and given access to birth control? Yes, most definitely. But to mass sterilize a group of people is not only reducing them to farm animals, but even to prove your own ignorance about genetic factors in race. You seem stuck back in the 1930's, and you're calling other people ignorant and narcissistic?

    Troll.

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