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  1. #21
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Yes, that's what his comment reminded me of.
    Well past the fact that of course any situation has to be analysed in depth before resorting to solutions that don't offer a "go back to last step" option.
    I didn't really read the thread, just caught 3, 4 key words, so yeah, blame me if i repeat stuff

    But anyway the main issue for me is that such mesures, even if they would be ('m talking theoretically) justifiable based on some model and data still place the chooser(s) in a situation where s/he/they deprive other people of choice.
    This is in no way a moral issue for me, it's simply that while the complexity of our societies came up with political systems where actors gets exclusive rights over other individuals etc. this has to be avoided when possible for the good old "absolute power corrupts absolutly" reason, but more seriously so as to avoid geopolitical polarizations leading to conflicts

    Now in some situations 1 professional specialist with enough information is considered as able to make a choice for another individual. But the thing about professionals is that they're ideally considered as detached and able to analyse the situation from rational perspective (in a vacuum at least), even without playing with the idea of bias, what sort of specialist could make decisions applying to foreign cultures in every aspects of their lives (restriction of ressources, birth limitations, access or not to some technologies ...)

    Surely when the demand and offer of ressources worldwide will be in a dire enough situation countries will start considering that more and more of the political and economical life of foreigns countries directly affect them and 'national' politics are bound to become an outdated nametag rather than a reality.
    In the mean time technological progress offers new possible solutions to quite alot of issues everyday, so it's all about knowing wether to try to find a stable fix now or keep patching up and waiting for tomorrow's invention (and new batch of issues).

  2. #22
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Ape, would you sterilize every Haitian?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #23
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape View Post
    The major root cause is a debt the Haiti was forced to pay France for the island's freedom. The debt was created by the French counting every living thing and asset on the island, giving it a price and then France demanding payment or they would block Haitis acceptance into the world community. The debt was in the 10's of billions in today's money terms and the Haitians payed it for many generations, sometimes the debt payments being more than 20% of the countries expenditures. The payments ended relatively recently( I could be wrong on exact details, as I am writing from memory, too lazy to research)

    French colonialism and it's mass shakedown doomed Haiti before it even got out of the gate
    Ape is quite correct: Haiti's debt to France crippled its chances from the offset. But all the blame doesn't necessarily land at France's doorstep...

    For decades the country has been forced to pay out tens of millions of dollars in debt payments, instead of investing the money in building hospitals, schools, or other infrastructure resources that could have helped in the aftermath of the earthquake. Haiti continued to service its debt to France until the 1900s, when the United States took over the debt and the country. The brutal Duvalier dictatorships used aid money for lavish parties and military death squads. This corruption was widely reported, yet donor countries and international financial institutions continued to lend money to the regime.

    Today, Haiti owes $1 billion to the international community, mostly to the IMF, the Inter-American Development Bank, Venezuela and Taiwan. This debt remains even after Haiti received international debt cancellation last June, which wiped $1.2 billion of Haitis debt off the books. Still, because of the inadequacies of the debt cancellation deal and the realities of an impoverished nations need, Haiti continues to owe.
    Source

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post


    Could somebody *please* find a video of Walter saying, "No, Donny; these men are nihilists; they're nothing to be afraid of..."?
    John Milius is a God

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And, fyi, Ape: I'm not some liberal, hippie, "world improver" douchebag.

    I studied economics in college, and have been a libertarian since high school.

    I'm also fully versed in nihilistic discourse (check the username), and your message sounds like that of a very immature 19-year old form of myself.

    The fact of the matter is that this product, via just $20B in (charitable) spending, could bring 3.5 billion people clean drinking water on a daily basis.

    Grow up.
    Another teenage like, personal attack, with an ironic theme.

    Try not to bring yourself and your ego into a debate about the merits of differing compassion's. Instead, try and maintain an objective, non emotional, mindset, so as to present yourself as an adult poster and thus more likely included in adult conversations.

    Can ya do that?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape View Post
    Another teenage like, personal attack, with an ironic theme.

    Try not to bring yourself and your ego into a debate about the merits of differing compassion's. Instead, try and maintain an objective, non emotional, mindset, so as to present yourself as an adult poster and thus more likely included in adult conversations.

    Can ya do that?
    Yesterday you trolled threads talking about feces and women sitting on your face.
    Today, you actually have the gall to tell someone to present himself as an adult?
    Give me a fucking break - knock off the hypocrisy.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    The thing is, reproduction is a human right. That is what keeps our species alive. To force sterilization upon people is... *sigh*

    Propagation of our species, is a right. It just is, you don't have to like it, or agree with it.

    Even though I did come off with a possibly "morally superior" tone, I apologize.

    All I'm saying is that you cannot sit behind your cozy computer and dictate who on this planet should be able to reproduce. That to me, seems to be screaming moral superiority.
    Please explain this human right. Is it part of nature? Is it included in the laws of nature? Can it be observed and proven by scientific method?

    Or is it simply some theoretical creation, created in the halls of Western academia, getting up on the pop coz radar for 40 years or so, more recently cause de jour?

    Is it a label recently invented and millions will suffer because this recently invented, in suburbia, moral construct, grasped firmly by people who have never truly suffered, will rise up to block any practical efforts at ending the suffering, because it may challenge an idea/theory that they recently created in their minds, in their world, with it's peculiar moral codes, that they invented, for their little world. Meanwhile great suffering occurs

    The suburban Western world and narcissistic personality disorder

  8. #28
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    Jaguar "fangs bared" - Yesterday you trolled threads talking about feces and women sitting on your face.
    Today, you actually have the gall to tell someone to present himself as an adult?
    Give me a fucking break - knock off the hypocrisy.

    Maybe read the post again, really concentrate

    My post in it's essence is comment on subjective versus objective. Ironically, the post above is a good example of a subjective based, personal attack.My post you were referring to were not attacks but were in fact parts of humorous stories and kooky business ideas.

    It would seem you were trying to misrepresent my comments and it would appear you were malicious in intent, making your post a personal attack. Is trolling, for the most part, someone who enters multiple threads and makes personal attacks on another member? I think most would agree it is.

    So you may want to "knock off the hypocrisy", as it makes you appear unhealthy. Maybe try and play nice or do not play at

  9. #29
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape View Post
    Please explain this human right. Is it part of nature? Is it included in the laws of nature? Can it be observed and proven by scientific method?

    Or is it simply some theoretical creation, created in the halls of Western academia, getting on the pop coz radar for 40 years or so?

    Is it a label recently invented and millions will suffer because this recently invented, in suburbia, moral construct, grasped firmly by people who have never truly suffered, will rise up to block any practical efforts at ending the suffering, because it may challenge an idea/theory that they recently created in their minds, in their world, with it's peculiar moral codes, that they invented, for their little world. Meanwhile great suffering occurs

    The suburban Western world and narcissistic personality disorder
    First of all we need to both take the emotion out of this, and discuss it logically.

    I don't think we are looking at this issue through the same eyes. That is the problem here.

    Okay, let me take the word human out of the equation. Everything on this planet has a "right" to reproduce. I'm not speaking about pop psychology either. To me it is biology. A biological fact.

    In my mind I see a planet teeming with life. Everything thrives when it can and dies when it cannot. It moves in cycles. Everything is a cycle of birth and then destruction. All this life has the same "right," which is to propagate its species, to have as many offspring as possible. That is how life continues in the natural world. That is what I meant by a "human right." I could have said the right that "anything has on this planet that falls into the slightly murky definition of life."

    I'm not exactly talking about the morality of this planet being strangled by humans because of over population. That is another matter, which I don't care to discuss in this thread.
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  10. #30
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    Okay, let me take the word human out of the equation. Everything on this planet has a "right" to reproduce. I'm not speaking about pop psychology either. To me it is biology. A biological fact.
    So you believe in natural rights? Who defends these natural rights?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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