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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think generally the idea of designed obsolescence isnt wrong Katsuni, there's a major innovation each year or there abouts, it all keeps a pace with festivals in which people have a spending glut and certainly in terms of consoles it happens.

    The PS1 and PS2 slimlines were possible because the original releases were created larger than necessary because there were so many things they could have included but choose not to because they were pacing themselves for future releases.

    I think it has a point that its not population per se but consumption that is the issue, this was true in the day of Malthus who originally had a fit about population growth, not everyone consumes equally so population increases in high consumption, high expectation and high income regions or populations will matter a lot more than those elsewhere whose only impact will be felt in the form of a rise in the need of milk producing goats.

  2. #22
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    but largely this remains the arena of hippies and tree huggers yet, if you ask me, therefore most of the mainstream population wont hear it out and it doesnt feature in the ideology of most libertarian or marketeer theorists.
    Really? I think here it is common knowledge, but in some strange way people don't seem to acknowledge it.

    But even if you see consumption as a problem, what then? There is no real alternative. I have thought about the steps a regular person would have to take to not contribute into it at all. It is impossible. For anyone alone it is too much. You would have to change the whole society, which seems unlikely. The probable scenario is that it all comes crashing down, and we learn nothing.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Really? I think here it is common knowledge, but in some strange way people don't seem to acknowledge it.

    But even if you see consumption as a problem, what then? There is no real alternative. I have thought about the steps a regular person would have to take to not contribute into it at all. It is impossible. For anyone alone it is too much. You would have to change the whole society, which seems unlikely. The probable scenario is that it all comes crashing down, and we learn nothing.
    I tend to be in agreement with that, I only know one guy who is living a lifestyle which would be consistent with the principles of resisting consumerism entirely and to be honest he grew up on a farm without running water, electricity, mod cons and pretty much has continued living that way with his wife and kinfolk. Turned relative deprivation into a lifestyle choice.

    I dont think that there is anything that can be done besides better management of waste and recycling, I wouldnt be surprised if necessity becomes the big driving force in all the eco-tech before too long.

    If a war doesnt happen which wipes everything the hell out.

  4. #24
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    I feel the need to balance out all of the chicken littles in this thread.

    You've all had your fantasy predictions, now let me have mine :

    1. In the next 30 years we will harness the power of Thermonuclear Fusion. At first we will only gain 10 to 1 energy out, energy in (not that great, but certainly better than any biomass, solar etc) and then as the technology improves we will see ratios approaching 100 units of energy out to 1 unit of energy in (dwarfing the 30 to 1 ratio of oil).

    2. With plentiful amounts of electricity we will switch cars over to being fully electric, and powered by carbon nano tube batteries. Due to their small size and stack-ability, they have a unimaginable capacity when compared to modern batteries for a similar space. These tiny batteries will increasingly make things possible that once simply required way too much power:
    --robotic body parts
    --robots in general
    --personal computers powering all sorts of now mechanical devices.
    --Plasma rocket engines that can fly on much much much less fuel weight and take us much farther and faster than conventional rocket fuel.
    --more electricity can be sold or given to parts of the world in giant blocks of a battery (no battery acid to corrode it!). Think of the salt water --> fresh water and general water cleaning stations that could be powered in various places around the globe.

    3. With the space program reinvigorated by new found power and speed, the private and public space sector will take off! We will make use of the solar system for many needs. Our garbage and toxic waste will be loaded onto space garbage trucks which will fly to a giant lunar/martian landfill. Think about it! all of the garbage in the entire world that now goes to landfills (maybe even all the trash that's already there) could be sent off to mars and the moon!

    4. Everything will be hooked up to the media cloud! You can go anywhere and have all of your stuff! 'Stuff' will increasingly be about what electronic goods you posses. Your TV shows, your music, your movies, all the paper work you have filed away in a cabinet or a computer today will be on the cloud. We will reach a processing point where the computers will be so powerful that no one notices a difference between faster ones or not. Everything will be on a cloud anyways and so what you will have is a monitor and a keyboard. Upgrades will be off-site. So there will be less plastic/electronics waste because increasingly it will be about content you buy rather than that device you use.

    5. Food will be a problem. As will space. People will increasingly live in dense farm/city communities where there are farm skyscrapers with crops being grown right in the city! All the industrial stuff will be in space, and cars will be electric and therefore the cities will be clean enough to grow the food right there! With all of the food and the people living so close together, many of our appliance needs will be obsolete. People will have less and less need to buy their own kitchen appliances, cleaning appliances etc because people will make use of urban services more and more. This will again lead to less wasted plastic/metal crap being used over time.

    6. Paper and plastic recycling could still be a problem. Nano robots could be unleashed upon vats of used plastic/paper and manually separate out the clean molecules one by one. True 100% recycling will be possible. And again, this will all be happening in space, therefore none of this affect our planet.


    YES ALL OF THIS WILL COME TO PASS!!! ...as soon as we get that fusion power

    -----
    just a side note, its rather humorous today to read about what environmentalists of the 70s predicted for the planet by today. While I support the cleaner world we live in, I dont think you can explain the disconnect between the current and their prophecies merely by pointing out that they got some laws passed...

    Perhaps people are a little too quick to doom and gloom?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Yeah unlimited power, I can see the current energy monopolies loving that one and all the attendent price adjustments and market corrections it would entail. I'm not so sure how its going to effect mass production so much or "stuff" which was really the source of this thread. The point about space exploration is just a little fantastical too.

    I didnt see any chicken littles in the thread and I'm not sure what you'll come up with once you're done reading or skimming hot, flat and crowded or one of Friedman's other optimism for capitalists reads.

  6. #26
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah unlimited power, I can see the current energy monopolies loving that one and all the attendent price adjustments and market corrections it would entail. I'm not so sure how its going to effect mass production so much or "stuff" which was really the source of this thread. The point about space exploration is just a little fantastical too.
    See, I had assumed you would get how ridiculous the whole thing sounded, on purpose! There's a lot of anti-consumerism in this thread based on the idea that eventually the whole system is going to collapse. I would equate that with at least "some" chicken little activity... I would put it on the level of thinking we will reach a post-scarcity society. The difference is that one is overly pessimistic and the other is overly optimistic.

    I didnt see any chicken littles in the thread and I'm not sure what you'll come up with once you're done reading or skimming hot, flat and crowded or one of Friedman's other optimism for capitalists reads.
    you think that little of me? Those are the kinds of book my ESFJ mother reads and then thinks shes an economist I also tend to eventually read the entirety of books...its just that it takes me a while (I hop around)

    Ill read something like this: The Open Society and Its Enemies (Karl Popper)

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