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  1. #81
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Most of these creations fufilled multiple functions, fortification for the military, defence for the scholarly, refuge for the persecuted, the source and centre of health and social service in their day and it was the rise of tele-evangelism and stadium evangelism in the states before churches became a source of "edu-tainment" like following a particular football team or being a sports fan.
    My next few points are going to be very sarcastic, so please do not take them personally:

    Military fortifications? Yeah, the Crusades were a wonderfully Christian idea!

    Defense for scholars? Yes! The Inquistion was just so fantastic at protecting free speech and pioneering scientific achievement!! I don't know why they call it the "Dark Ages" . . . .

    Refuge for the Persecuted? That's right! Let's sell indulgences to the ignorant masses to pay for these refuges! We have their best interests at heart!!


    Now seriously, the Catholic Church has come a long way since the Middle Ages, and Catholics have done wonderful things over the course of the past hundred years: they've saved Jews from Nazis, Untouchables from famine, and unwanted children and babies from certain-death.

    And yes, the commercialist, entertainment-obsessed Christians come mostly from non-denominational American churches, but I'm not sparing my criticism from either group.

    All of Christendom has its work cut out for us . . . .
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    “Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules.” -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

  2. #82
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Lark, your last two posts are so full of frantic self-justifications that they read like the words of a man on trial. "Yes, I really hate homosexuality! Yes, I really love to bang women!" You essentially repeated that over and over again throughout the entirety of the seven paragraphs you wrote. I think that maybe two or three sentences, if even that, were actually addressed to the issue we're discussing; the rest of them were dedicated to defending your ego against some threat that homosexuality apparently poses to it.

    I'm sorry that you feel so threatened by love between consenting adults, but it really has nothing to do with the discussion. Our discussion is about corruption in the Catholic Church, not about how much you and your religion disapprove of homosexuality. The fact that you and your religion think homosexuality is a sin is so well-established by now that you may as well write seven paragraphs reminding us that the ocean is wet.

    If that comes off as snarky, I apologize, because really I'm just amused, albeit in a slightly exasperated manner.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  3. #83
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Seymour, I share the view that homosexuals can be considered objectively disordered, at least in many if not all instances. That's not to say that they cant be happy, harmless or even good people, that's the RC view, not that they are evil or pre-ordained to sin and worse sin at that.
    By that logic, why not allow them to serves as priests, since priests are sworn to celibacy? Since the only permissive expression of sexuality according to the Catholic church is procreative sex in marriage, does that mean all men or "objectively disordered" when the are attracted to anyone who is not their (perhaps future) wife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont have a problem with the actions of RC charities and welfare organisations, particularly since there are and always will be probably, homosexual charities and welfare organisations, many of whom by default or design dont tailor to the needs of others than homosexuals, neither would I expect them to. Its a little like expecting a help line for confused adolescents set up by maintained and staffed by homosexuals to tell them they could be straight rather than "No, you're definitely gay".
    Generally in the U.S., this problem is handled by the general rule of "if you take state money, you have to abide by the state's rules." Therefore, private charities are under no onus to abide by anti-distrimination laws. I think that's only fair, since it's their own money and they should be allowed to spend it as they see fit. The only area where this really breaks down is areas like adoption agencies, where the charities are functioning, in part, on behalf of the state (children not being private property in a normal sense, and the state having a responsibility to look out for the interests of children, especially when they lack a parent or guardian).

    Why I was pointing out those charities is that they treat gay marriages as inherently worse the marriages involving divorced and re-married couples, which are equally non-marriages in the eyes of the church. The fact that gay relationships are treated differently is telling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The action of the Pope, of which your post is news to me, is probably one response to the clerical abuse and creeping corruption within the Church, I know that a lot of the abuse in Ireland involved male predators preying upon male children and while its wrong to connect male homosexuality and male on male peadophilia, whether opportunistic or pathological, they are connected in many peoples minds.
    Yay! I agree with you... agreement can happen!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If I could find the listmania I was mentioning I'd link it but so far I've not found it Seymour, I wouldnt say that suggestings I believe in some sort of "homosexual menace" or that it "looms large" was fair or an accurate representation of my view, I've not repeatedly mentioned it, infact I wasnt the original poster of this thread for instance. That's a little like suggesting that anyone who doesnt have a favourable opinion of homosexuality is a closet homosexual themselves or a bigot who cant abide difference, which is at once untrue and most of the time used simply to close down debate or close minds.
    Perhaps I was painting with too broad a brush, but it does seem to be a consistent them in your postings. You have in the past (and above), stated your belief some people or coerced or influenced into homosexuality who would not otherwise have a homosexual orientation.

    You have also stated that the damage done to such people sufficiently out-weighs the damage done to gay and lesbian youth enough to necessitate continuing existing bans on gay marriage and to preclude the state from otherwise granting explicit support to people with a homosexual orientation.

    You've also repeatedly alluded to homosexuals as being well-organized, seeking to infiltrate the Catholic church, and trying to force acceptance through political means.

    That all sounds pretty menace-y to me, and, it seems to me, that you often see homosexuals as an active threat to straight individuals and also religious institutions.

    Perhaps seeing gay people as threatening is more the exception than the rule for you, but that's how it generally comes across to me based on your posts. Of course, there is little reason to post about non-threatening gay folks, so that's also a possibility.

    I could easily be over-generalizing, though, so feel free to correct me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Seymour here's a link to one of the individuals I'd regard as a "militant", its their listmanias on Amazon, their username advocates abolishing ages of conscent and you'll see that they have more lists categorised as "boy love" and their tags are exclusively "man boy", perhaps they could be considered something other, more sinister, than a homosexual in orientation but for the fact that they have almost equal listmanias and reviews dedicated to homosexuality per se.
    I certainly can't speak to that from my own experience. As I've said before, I do generally support age of consent laws, although I think they should be softened a bit for couples right around the age of consent line (perhaps for those a year or two apart in age).

    I don't think Amazon lists are necessarily a representative sample, and I'm sure we could find all kinds of loons of whatever persuasion on amazon lists. I'm sure I could go looking for fans of straight "barely legal" porn, and find some odd cross-overs. All that isn't so say that gay men are never pedophiles... merely equally likely to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Now, I'm a heterosexual, I'm a practicing one, I've a lot of fun with it and its a big part of my identity and life there's not the same tact or content or exclusivity. Its possible to paint my view as a paranoia, phobia, whatever but in doing so its all simply a matter of dismissing or minimising it and that's not such a great idea, whether the people involved are heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or pomosexual minds are being closed on this topic, which doesnt do anyone good.
    I've never claimed or implied you were anything but heterosexual. I admit to not fully understanding your emotional investment in this topic. I'm gay, so I understand why it's easy for me to get invested in such debates. You're not gay, so I do wonder what formed your beliefs and what experiences or information led to such conclusions. You are, of course, entitled to your own belief, and even if you think homosexuals are disordered, that doesn't make you a bad person or someone acting in bad faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    NB Here's the profile I was talking about:

    Amazon.co.uk: Profile for Pius

    The "in my own words" section says it all, its also content that I as a roman catholic find extremely offensive, far from believing this person an abomination I dont care actually, I'm not interested but I do believe they are revelling in their own self-ascribed outsider/outlaw/abnormal identity and dragging my faith into it. I dont believe that the RC church is homoerotic for an instance and find that offensive too, a little like I'm sure a homosexual might find associations of their orientation with peadophilia or NAMBLA would feel I suspect.
    I certainly find claims like the above historically extremely dubious at best, and likely willfully incendiary. I do think a problem with modern society (at least here in the U.S.) is a lack of valuing friendships. Looking on indications of friendship and caring between men as being inherently gay does a disservice to the nature of and need for friendship. So taking a few verses from the Bible and proclaiming them examples of gay relationships makes the same mistake in a historical context.

    I'm also not a big fan of liberation theology, which the profile also mentions. I do see a parallel between the posters position and the taken by some "queer theorists," some of whom posit that everyone is gay or bisexual, and the heterosexuality is inherently bad. To me, the profile writer is doing the same thing with the Catholic church, claiming that homosexuality is the only means to God, which is the mirror image of some of the standard doctrines.

    I can understand finding it highly offensive.

    And I hope you aren't equating being gay with a religion as such... I assume you were standing that associating something offensive with an aspect of one's identity (like being catholic or gay) gets one's dander up. If so, I agree.

    And, as I've said before, I do appreciate your responding. It occasionally gives me hope that a better understanding is possible. I'm not personally anti-religious or anti-Catholic, even if I do disagree with some specific doctrines. Most churches are composed primarily of good people trying to do the right thing as they know it.


    I would like to hear your perspective on the church's handling of child abuse by its clergy, though.

  4. #84
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    Isn't the whole point of becoming a priest so you can surround yourself with/interact with other gay men?

    A big gay fraternity that deems sex w/women a big gross no-no?

  5. #85
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Isn't the whole point of becoming a priest so you can surround yourself with/interact with other gay men?

    A big gay fraternity that deems sex w/women a big gross no-no?
    :yim_rolling_on_the_
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  6. #86
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Isn't the whole point of becoming a priest so you can surround yourself with/interact with other gay men?

    A big gay fraternity that deems sex w/women a big gross no-no?
    Or so you can molest children and be above suspicion
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #87
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Or so you can molest children and be above suspicion
    More and more, it's like they're wearing a pedophile uniform. Seriously, they should just let priests marry, and ordain women, it's already gotten way out of hand.


  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    More and more, it's like they're wearing a pedophile uniform. Seriously, they should just let priests marry, and ordain women
    What--and spoil all the fun???

    Here, child--drink this wine. And soon I will put something in your mouth. It's the body of Christ, our Lord...

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    What--and spoil all the fun???

    Here, child--drink this wine. And soon I will put something in your mouth. It's the body of Christ, our Lord...
    Born again through the vulva.

  10. #90
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I wonder how many members of the cloth are a part of it to conceal their sexual identity in the first place.

    Not sure... but most members of the loincloth are quite open about it.

    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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