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  1. #51
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Okay, I appreciate that some of you are interested in discussing the Church's attitude toward general sexuality, and I've given my opinions by which I continue to stand. However, that whole issue is really beside the point I wanted to address to this topic. In a nutshell, my point is that the church stigmatizes certain forms of sexuality and that people so stigmatized will be driven to purify themselves through services to the Church. This makes the priesthood particularly enticing to them, the more so the more guilty they feel, and because of this we can expect the Vatican to house an abnormally large number of sexual outcasts. Everything else I've mentioned is important, but it really isn't the main point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy
    You know, frigid, icy...
    *laughs* It was a typo, honestly. If I wanted to insult you, I could have been more creative than that, and it would never occur to me to call you frigid, the punibility of it notwithstanding.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    Okay, I appreciate that some of you are interested in discussing the Church's attitude toward general sexuality, and I've given my opinions by which I continue to stand. However, that whole issue is really beside the point I wanted to address to this topic. In a nutshell, my point is that the church stigmatizes certain forms of sexuality and that people so stigmatized will be driven to purify themselves through services to the Church. This makes the priesthood particularly enticing to them, the more so the more guilty they feel, and because of this we can expect the Vatican to house an abnormally large number of sexual outcasts. Everything else I've mentioned is important, but it really isn't the main point.

    *laughs* It was a typo, honestly. If I wanted to insult you, I could have been more creative than that, and it would never occur to me to call you frigid, the punibility of it notwithstanding.
    Yeah and I thought the Da Vinci code was nutty, the Vatican isnt out guilt tripping sexuality in some sort of bizarro recruitment drive.

    If anything the Church has more than its fair share of "outcasts" because its a forgiving institution and has historically offered care services to many who have been abused or neglected as kids, yes, there can be a correlation between those things and abnormal psychology later in life, no I'm not labelling all homosexuals abnormal, yes I am labelling some of them abnormal, as I would heterosexuals who took a vow of celibacy only to get involved in a hetero prostitution racket.

  3. #53
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah and I thought the Da Vinci code was nutty, the Vatican isnt out guilt tripping sexuality in some sort of bizarro recruitment drive.

    If anything the Church has more than its fair share of "outcasts" because its a forgiving institution and has historically offered care services to many who have been abused or neglected as kids, yes, there can be a correlation between those things and abnormal psychology later in life, no I'm not labelling all homosexuals abnormal, yes I am labelling some of them abnormal, as I would heterosexuals who took a vow of celibacy only to get involved in a hetero prostitution racket.
    What do all these scandals have to do with the Church being a "forgiving" institution? Are you suggesting that the Church knowingly lets pedophiles into its ranks, on the pretense that they've been cured? If so, this is far worse than the simple draw the priesthood has for such people; in this case, we have an institution that knowingly endangers the lives of young people.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  4. #54
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    What do all these scandals have to do with the Church being a "forgiving" institution? Are you suggesting that the Church knowingly lets pedophiles into its ranks, on the pretense that they've been cured? If so, this is far worse than the simple draw the priesthood has for such people; in this case, we have an institution that knowingly endangers the lives of young people.
    I'm saying that many reprehensibe individuals are attraced to the Church because it IS an institution which maintains strong beliefs in repentence, redemption and forgiveness. Yes. Those individuals may include sex offenders. Yes.

    Has that resulted in the institution being unduly credulous in some instances, sure, its happened, that's what the Churches own enquires have concluded and sought to change.

    Do you know that the UK government has more instances of repeat offences by peadophiles on day release or community care or other supervision conditions than other EU member states? Do you know the UK has more registered peadophiles in the community than other EU member states?

    Where's your indictment now?

  5. #55
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Pus eater...
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  6. #56
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    Okay, I appreciate that some of you are interested in discussing the Church's attitude toward general sexuality, and I've given my opinions by which I continue to stand. However, that whole issue is really beside the point I wanted to address to this topic. In a nutshell, my point is that the church stigmatizes certain forms of sexuality and that people so stigmatized will be driven to purify themselves through services to the Church. This makes the priesthood particularly enticing to them, the more so the more guilty they feel, and because of this we can expect the Vatican to house an abnormally large number of sexual outcasts. Everything else I've mentioned is important, but it really isn't the main point.
    I think people are taking issue more with your characterization of the church. Like with any large institution, collective or ideology, there are far more shades of grey than the black and white characterization made by someone so removed from the day-to-day reality of life within it.

    I think your critiques would be better received if you thoughtfully engaged with the church's worldview rather than simply berated some of the reprehensible behaviours coming from the church. Because with anything so large-scale (doesn't the Catholic church have like 1 billion + people?) inevitably there are going to be some serious and significant problems.

    Not long ago, a lot of educational institutions had explicitly outlined racist admissions policies--that doesn't mean the institutions themselves were malevolent or corrupt. Because really, all institutions are corrupt. It comes with the territory.

    While I'm disgusted with some of the historical and current choices being made from people within educational institutions, I also see a lot of value in it. So too with the church.

    Don't think that there aren't Catholics out there who are as equally angry and disgusted with this as you are. I've never encountered an entirely "good" or an entirely "bad" institution. It's just reality.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  7. #57
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Exactly, Usehername. A little nuance goes a long way.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #58
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm saying that many reprehensibe individuals are attraced to the Church because it IS an institution which maintains strong beliefs in repentence, redemption and forgiveness. Yes. Those individuals may include sex offenders. Yes.
    Right, and this is one of the issues I've been driving at. If you set yourself up as an institution owned by a cosmic debt collector, you're going to attract a lot of messed up people. Forgiveness is all good and well--although you should pay your debts to the people you've wronged rather than a man in the sky--but at some point you've got to stop forgiving people and start using common sense. Are going to hang out with a serial killer, just because they claim they've changed their ways? I think not.

    But the Church's occasional credulity scarcely begins to touch on the main issue. The core issue is first of all that Church places undue stigma on sex, thus drawing people like that and in many cases turning what may well have been a benign condition into a growing. The core issue is second of all, as I said above, that the Church offers people a place where they can go to pay any and all of their debts symbolically rather than literally. If Billy-Bob down the street rapes and murders a child, he doesn't have to go to the law or the family he's destroyed. All he has to do is walk up to the altar and seek forgiveness from the cosmic debt collector. Oh, he'll experience pain all right; he'll regret what he did. But what good is that to the people whose lives he's devastated? None whatsoever, and guilt that heals no wrongs is worthless.

    But that isn't even the worst thing about it; the worst thing about it is the simple fact that this system of forgiveness gives wrongdoers a refuge. They can go on in secrecy--it's between them and God, not them and man--and delude themselves into thinking everything is all right, only to commit the same kind of act all over again. People like that need help, not a hiding place; they need to be put behind bars, where they can't harm anyone, and they need treatment from a psychiatrist.
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  9. #59
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Peggy, you're going to let us talk about Catholics like this?

    No defense of the Vatican? Maybe you don't even like the Vatican.

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