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  1. #21
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    On the one hand, the Vatican places tremendous guilt on one of the most loving and pleasurable activities any human can engage in--apparently you're even supposed to think of God while you have sex: to do it for the sheer joy of it would be sinful.* And on the other hand, the Vatican has a policy that in order to enter its ranks, you must be celibate.

    I speak of these two things as though they lie in the opposite hands, and that's what the Vatican wants us to think, but is it really so? I think not.

    The Vatican, I believe, is like a doctor who makes his patients ill so that he can empty their pockets, and the type of illness the Vatican inflicts on its patients is guilt. When someone is guilty, he will do a great deal to redeem himself; such a person will almost become a slave if he must, and he'll certainly pay a great price. This price necessarily entails avoiding the act that caused the guilt, but in most cases something more is wanted. For one thing, very few people will feel that they've cleansed themselves if all they do is change their ways: the guilty want to make payment, not merely walk away. For another thing, their judge is often only too thrilled to oblige them.

    In the case of the Vatican, you are asked not only to abstain from "unholy" sex acts; you are also asked to purge yourself of that and other types of "sin" by dedicating your life to Christ, who you supposedly harmed. You are to pray, you are to recruit, and you are to empty your pockets on the alter--these are all ways to purify yourself of your inherent wickedness, and the more guilty you feel, the more driven you'll be to do this. The Vatican is not a charity; the Vatican is a vast business enterprise that charges people for the illness it inflicts on them, and the more ill you are, the bigger the price you're expected to pay. If a Catholic's conscience were to be translated into a noise, it would sound like the ringing of a cash register.

    It's unsurprising, then, to see that the ones who go the farthest to pay their debts to the Vatican--the priests, who have sacrificed most of their pleasures--are also the ones most prone to scandal. We think of them as holy men, but most of them are probably messed up in ways that their self-cruelty only hints at. Nor is it a surprise that they're prone to sexual problems, since other than being anti-Christian or simply alive, sexuality in any of its forms is the thing that puts you most in debt. Add to that the fact that the priesthood has a tailored remedy for this "sin"--celibacy--and you have a perfect honeypot for all manner of sexual outcasts.

    *People who are in love with each other ultimately want to merge through a sexual act (and by sex we don't necessarily mean genital intercourse: all human interaction is sexual except where you're repulsed by someone; nor by love do we necessarily mean its most powerful form, romantic passion). Toward this end, a pair of lovers will try to seclude themselves not only from other humans but from existence in general; their goal is to get wrapped up in each other, and anything external to them, particularly a conscious being, will pull them away from this. It is possible for a couple to enjoy this situation rather than experience it as an obstacle, however, and this we call exhibitionism. The goal of exhibitionism is not to merge with your partner but for both of you to be absorbed into the witness. You can love the witness, and in fact you must if you're a exhibitionist, but you can only do so at the expense of your love for the person in front of you: completing yourself with A is not compatible with completing yourself with not-A.

    Two resolutions to the situation of exhibitionism present themselves. One of them is to equate your lover and your audience, so that A and not-A become one. The other possibility is to revel in exhibitionism and seek, along with your lover, to become one with your audience. In the case of Catholicism, this would amount to calling your lover God or seeking to become God yourself, both of which are explicitly sacrilegious. Since the Catholic God is present not only before sexual intercourse but all forms of friendship, we see that this kind of God is a catch-22 for both romance and love in general: his presence, paired with the conditions under which doctrine permits you to experience it, forbid your affections to aim for the very culmination that they consist of seeking. If you love God, whether directly or through exhibitionism, you're trying to become a deity, and if you love people instead, you either do so with indifference to him or, equally sacrilegious, by considering him one of you. The God of Catholicism may be a god of love, but it's only a mockery of love.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Is this supposed to be news?
    The reason they're so outspoken against homosexuality is merely a tactic to cover up their own homosexuality.
    I don't know how they sleep at night with all that hypocrisy screaming in their head - above the shoulders and below the belt.
    +1

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    On the one hand, the Vatican places tremendous guilt on one of the most loving and pleasurable activities any human can engage in--apparently you're even supposed to think of God while you have sex: to do it for the sheer joy of it would be sinful.*
    I stopped reading at this point.

    The reason being that as a practicing Roman Catholic of thirty years I have NEVER heard this from ANY of the hierarchy, let alone the Vatican.

    The church does not share the popular infatuation and obsession with sex, which is unremarkable for a spiritually focused institution but perhaps so, so bizarre to contemporary norms and morals that this position has to be subject to vitriolic misrepresentation and critcism.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Right, as an RC this troubles me because just how a Church official was able to fund this is as scandalous to me as the boardroom pay deals, its not just a moral affront to me but an example of avaratiousness.

    Now the fact that the sexual angle has proven of greater interest to the public, especially the detractors and condemners is interesting and I'd say probably says more about the public at large than the Church.

    The debate should be had about celibacy in the Church or even homosexuality, the Church does not condemn homosexuality per se and doesnt even get drawn into debates about the origin of homosexual orientation, however it does condemn sexual activity which doesnt correspond with natural law as they understand it (which means that the oral sex, anal sex and other sexual behaviour between heterosexuals is equally condemned).

    The debate may conclude that no change is warranted but I think it would be worthy none the less for the understand it could create, the positions of the RC church on these matters are seriously distorted and misrepresented by believers and non-believers alike, the reason being that the Church has been subject to assault since before the reformation, schism, rennaisance and enlightenment, there's been a lot of propaganda on all sides, its also a global institution existing in a lot of different contexts and cultures striving for consensus and universality, which is a collossal task.

    I have heard of great defences of celibacy, not from a spirit of self-denial but for the same reasons which feature in plot lines in Smallville, Batman or other heroic archetypes in the mainstream media about the role of dependents in any context were someone is being asked to run risks and struggle against evil. That can be dated, it does hark most strongly from the time of the crusades and military campaigning.

    In practice some of the converts from the Anglican Catholic Church to the RC church had wives and families and it was not a bar to membership or even continued ministration as priests. There are also scriptural precedents for marriage among Jesus immediate followers. Although not for homosexuality.

    The church has been a home for many seriously damaged individuals also, in its day it was the only source of social care before the welfare state, as a result some really damaged or abused individuals were welcomed from their care homes into the priesthood without the necessary guardedness or vigilance for an agency of its kind which has resulted in seriously perverse scandals and real villainy.

    Like I've said before a predatory individual graduating from being a social service user or ward to a foster carer and then perpetuating at cycle of abuse, as has happened in the UK, doesnt get looked at in the same way.

    This phenomenon is the only way in which I can explain some of the more ill shit that goes on, like some militant homosexuals seeking to infiltrate the church as "traditionalists" seeking to represent the church as a patriarchal, male, homosexual institution (check the lists on Amazon if you want to discover some of this). The actions of these people then are represented as the norm or mainstream by the enemies of the church.

  5. #25
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    The Catholic church isn't all bad. They've got these nuns, see...

    Nuns kick ass (and somehow still look gentle):


    They know how to kick back and have a good time:


    And, if all those gay bishops and such were nuns, they would use fashion as an outlet insead of little boys and hookers:


    The Vatican should be converted into one huge kick-ass nunery.

    "OMG I FEEEEEEEEEL SO INTENSELY ABOUT EVERYTHING OMG OMG OMG GET ME A XANAX" -Priam (ENFP impersonation)

  6. #26
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    I'm pretty sure that first nun is satanic. I'm also pretty sure that I was completely ignorant of satanic nuns up until this moment!

  7. #27
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I dont actually think this is funny but by the same token I dont think its important enough to get pissed off about.

    The pictures I mean, not the topic of the thead.

  8. #28
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    hmm...since the Clergy kept getting cold busted for not being able to keep their hands off the choir boys.

    I suppose they turned to using offerings for prostitution instead?

  9. #29
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Well, there was a "club" in a secret part of West London (Putney) where all the priests used to go to meet other priests and such like.

    When the police raided the place (not before time, may I say) there was a naked (save for his dog collar) priest tied to giant cross being fellated by another priest dressed up as an alter boy. They were surrounded by hundreds of "busy" priests chanting Hail Mary, full of grace...

    How much longer must society suffer this depravity?

    Yours concerned,

    -Trombones

  10. #30
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I stopped reading at this point.

    The reason being that as a practicing Roman Catholic of thirty years I have NEVER heard this from ANY of the hierarchy, let alone the Vatican.
    Really? You're not familiar with Pope Paul VI's Humanae Vitae, in which he addressed "HIS VENERABLE BROTHERS THE PATRIARCHS, ARCHBISHOPS, BISHOPS AND OTHER LOCAL ORDINARIES IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE TO THE CLERGY AND FAITHFUL OF THE WHOLE CATHOLIC WORLD, AND TO ALL MEN OF GOOD WILL, ON THE REGULATION OF BIRTH?" Well, I shall enlighten you, then:

    The transmission of human life is a most serious role in which married people collaborate freely and responsibly with God the Creator.


    Married love particularly reveals its true nature and nobility when we realize that it takes its origin from God, who "is love," (6) the Father "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named."

    As a consequence, husband and wife, through that mutual gift of themselves, which is specific and exclusive to them alone, develop that union of two persons in which they perfect one another, cooperating with God in the generation and rearing of new lives.

    For the Lord has entrusted to them the task of making visible to men and women the holiness and joy of the law which united inseparably their love for one another and the cooperation they give to God's love, God who is the Author of human life.
    This is also addressed to the person who sent me a rep comment voicing a similar disagreement.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

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