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  1. #91
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Those who make harsh blasphemies and generalities about different religions seem to do so with impunity today that the sexists and racists of the 1950s/1960s.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    My next few points are going to be very sarcastic, so please do not take them personally:

    Military fortifications? Yeah, the Crusades were a wonderfully Christian idea!

    Defense for scholars? Yes! The Inquistion was just so fantastic at protecting free speech and pioneering scientific achievement!! I don't know why they call it the "Dark Ages" . . . .

    Refuge for the Persecuted? That's right! Let's sell indulgences to the ignorant masses to pay for these refuges! We have their best interests at heart!!


    Now seriously, the Catholic Church has come a long way since the Middle Ages, and Catholics have done wonderful things over the course of the past hundred years: they've saved Jews from Nazis, Untouchables from famine, and unwanted children and babies from certain-death.

    And yes, the commercialist, entertainment-obsessed Christians come mostly from non-denominational American churches, but I'm not sparing my criticism from either group.

    All of Christendom has its work cut out for us . . . .
    I dont take those things personally because they are the stock and trade misrepresentations and propaganda of modernism, a lot of people vomit them forth without thinking too much about how a repeated lie is STILL a lie.

    The Crusades? What do you know about the Crusades? Military campaigns became necessary to protect the masses of pilgrims who made pilgrimage to holy lands and visited relics, which were often mandatory at the time, from the Crusades grew up the Hospitaleers, its not coincidence that Hospitals are named for them either.

    Besides the Crusades I was actually thinking of the military orders which pre-dated and post-dated that episode which defended Europe from the Ottoman empire and prior to that often provided the only defence against mauraders or vikings (in Irish and Scottish history anyway).

    Scholarship has its origins in the scribes and scriptoriums of the Church, it was Irish monks who preserved and saved most of the writings and civilisation of Europe throughout the "Dark Ages" which were rightly so called for the collapse of secular and temporal law, order, authority and records until they were once again restored, a lot of the time by the Church.

    Refuge for the persecuted refers to sanctuary, the Church protected a great many, battered wives, children, the wrongly accused, in a lawless time they were one of the very few entities required to give anyone a hearing at all and behaving with any kind of obligation toward others. How did slavery disappear from Europe? Not by war, not by prohibition. When feudalism grew up how and why were the powerful compelled to respect or be responsible for the lowliest of serfs in their lands? All the works of Christian culture, Hilaire Belloc wrote at length about this in the Servile state, which provoked defenders of socialism and capitalism alike to attack him.

    The crimes of the inquisition have been grossly over estimated and exaggerated, first during the schism when protestant rebels and principalities had serious political stakes in doing so (some continue this to today), then by the enlightenment and liberal revolutionaries who often seized upon a spirit of discontent which had ironically been sown by popular sentiments or revulsion sown by protestantism rather than Christendom.

    The crimes of Calvin's Geneva rivalled those of the inquisition, deliberately so and for political reasons, yet they have been forgotten, Luther's betrayal of the popular revolt he him unleashed by his alliance with the principalities during the Peasant War is on a par with anything Lenin, Trotsky or Stalin did, its forgotten too.

    The all points critique is perhaps a privilege of youth and a convenient high ground to position your cannons, so to speak, but eventually you have to do the research and reach conclusion, recycling stock answers in libertarian vogue's no good.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Those who make harsh blasphemies and generalities about different religions seem to do so with impunity today that the sexists and racists of the 1950s/1960s.
    They do do it with impunity and not a thought for what they say, either the hurt it could cause someone who reverentially believes in faith and tradition or those who have been victims of the crimes of those to betrayed, abused and corrupted their office.

    No, I dont see anything funny or insinuous about that iconography, the Church is one of the few entities which does not play ball with the sexualised and sex saturated norms of society.

    Neither do I think the Priesthood is a gay fraternity at all, although I can see how the church has tried to reverse that idea, if only to deter those who would think that way and therefore be drawn, wrongly, to the office of priest.

  4. #94
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    @ Lark: Again, I'll try to give a more complete answer tomorrow, but first a few brief points:

    Realize I am not purposely singling out Catholics in an attempt to make Protestants look better. Luther was an anti-semite with quite a temper, and yes, the peasant revolt left a lot of people dead for no good reason.

    And yes, Calvin's Geneva was a very oppressive government, but that only furthers my central premise of the dangers of hierarchical Christianity.

    And yes, the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages was not completely evil and completely responsible for every bad thing that happened then, but that doesn't mean they were completely innocent.

    Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church made absolutely no moral mistakes when it came to the Inquisition, the Crusades, and indulgences?

    History may unfairly forget a lot of the good things that the Catholic Church has done, but that doesn't justify you denying the bad--which I am sure you will not do.

    There are enough mistakes to go around.

    (And I am only seeking to reduce the mistakes that Christians are on track to be making in the future.)
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    “Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules.” -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    @ Lark: Again, I'll try to give a more complete answer tomorrow, but first a few brief points:

    Realize I am not purposely singling out Catholics in an attempt to make Protestants look better. Luther was an anti-semite with quite a temper, and yes, the peasant revolt left a lot of people dead for no good reason.

    And yes, Calvin's Geneva was a very oppressive government, but that only furthers my central premise of the dangers of hierarchical Christianity.

    And yes, the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages was not completely evil and completely responsible for every bad thing that happened then, but that doesn't mean they were completely innocent.

    Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church made absolutely no moral mistakes when it came to the Inquisition, the Crusades, and indulgences?

    History may unfairly forget a lot of the good things that the Catholic Church has done, but that doesn't justify you denying the bad--which I am sure you will not do.

    There are enough mistakes to go around.

    (And I am only seeking to reduce the mistakes that Christians are on track to be making in the future.)
    The thing is though that railing against hierarchy has been done, it was done by Luther and Calvin, the same dispute has played out a hundred times since but in the ideological field instead of the religious since it is now the main focus for most people. I dont know if I mentioned this link before and its a little off topic but anyway:

    'The Tyranny of Structurelessness' by Jo Freeman

    I'm not denying fault, its an imperfect world and always will be but the repitition of the same old stuff doesnt move discussion anyplace. Indulgences I dont see as a big deal at all, in their origin they were invented by Irish monks who effectively infused Christianity with the optimism necessary to transform the whole of Christendom and Europe and ensure its survival at the time, they were a counter measure to the pervasive pessimism which condemned all as sinners to be gripped by fear in the face of an evil world and capricious deity.

  6. #96
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Those who make harsh blasphemies and generalities about different religions seem to do so with impunity today that the sexists and racists of the 1950s/1960s.
    I'm a facetious infidel and will burn in hell for my sins. But seriously so will my local vicar seeing as he has asked to see my tan lines whilst letting a little dribble slip out of his mouth onto his chin.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #97
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    First thing first, Lark--I would like to apologize. Last night after I got off line, I was turning around in my head why you had seemed so unusually defensive about Catholic history and practice. Then, it hit me. All the Catholics I've met with and talked with before were American, not Irish.

    You are absolutely right when you say that I am not as well-versed in history as you are, but I know enough to know that Catholics and Protestants in Ireland haven't always gotten along--and I also know enough to know that to say that is to be making an extreme understatement.

    Also, our approaches to discussion seem to be very different. You seem to focus more on specific details while I focus on broad concepts (perhaps this is an expression of our differing personalities).

    In any case, I'm not sure we will be able to continue this discussion to the end satisfaction of either one of us. I'm willing to agree to disagree.

    With that said, I will answer your latest post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The thing is though that railing against hierarchy has been done, it was done by Luther and Calvin, the same dispute has played out a hundred times since but in the ideological field instead of the religious since it is now the main focus for most people. I dont know if I mentioned this link before and its a little off topic but anyway:

    'The Tyranny of Structurelessness' by Jo Freeman

    I'm not denying fault, its an imperfect world and always will be but the repitition of the same old stuff doesnt move discussion anyplace. Indulgences I dont see as a big deal at all, in their origin they were invented by Irish monks who effectively infused Christianity with the optimism necessary to transform the whole of Christendom and Europe and ensure its survival at the time, they were a counter measure to the pervasive pessimism which condemned all as sinners to be gripped by fear in the face of an evil world and capricious deity.
    Luther was not opposed to formal heirarchy in and of itself; his intention was reform, not schism. As for Calvin, you yourself already mentioned his theocratic abuses at Geneva.

    And as for that link, I skimmed it and I actually agree with most of it, even the conclusions at the end. I do not deny that informal groups of people self-assort into an informal structure. Nor do I deny that minimally structured groups are more suited to local action as opposed to action across a wide geographic region.

    This is exactly why the United States originally had a very weak central government in the capitol and very powerful states surrounding it.

    This is also why many churches in the first century were identified with individual cities: the church in Jerusalem, the church of Antioch, the church of Corinth, and so on and so forth. Sure, there was a church council in Jerusalem, but it's influence was far from absolute.

    As for indulgences, I am sure there were plenty of good-intentioned and well-educated supporters as you spoke of, but as you said, you are not denying the faults of others who abused the practice. Thank you. That's all I ask.

    Take care Lark.

    Eddy
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    “Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules.” -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

  8. #98
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    Hey Lark, I haven't heard back from you . . . .

    Anyway, I hope you're having a mighty fine St. Patrick's Day!
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    “Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules.” -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    Hey Lark, I haven't heard back from you . . . .

    Anyway, I hope you're having a mighty fine St. Patrick's Day!
    Thanks man, I just got tired of the topic, it happens when all that could be said really has been said. I used to post a bunch of different topics when I felt that but I've recovered Now people just wonder were I went

    Thanks for all your posts

  10. #100
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    No problem!
    "In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate, are you able to play the feminine part?" -- Lao Tzu

    "For when the One Great Scorer comes
    To write against your name,
    He marks - not that you won or lost -
    But how you played the Game."
    -- Grantland Rice

    “Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules.” -- from The Catcher in the Rye

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do, and what a man can't do." -- Jack Sparrow

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