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  1. #1
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Default Armenian Genocide resolution HR 252

    Full text, see --->Armenian Genocide Resolution full text | News from Armenia - NEWS.am

    Extract:


    (30) Despite the international recognition and affirmation of the Armenian Genocide, the failure of the domestic and international authorities to punish those responsible for the Armenian Genocide is a reason why similar genocides have recurred and may recur in the future, and that a just resolution will help prevent future genocides.

    The House of Representatives:

    (1) calls upon the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to human rights, ethnic cleansing, and genocide documented in the United States record relating to the Armenian Genocide and the consequences of the failure to realize a just resolution; and

    (2) calls upon the President in the President's annual message commemorating the Armenian Genocide issued on or about April 24, to accurately characterize the systematic and deliberate annihilation of 1,500,000 Armenians as genocide and to recall the proud history of United States intervention in opposition to the Armenian Genocide.


    -----


    Many questions.

    1/ What do you think of State-sponsored Negationism (like the one you have in Turkey)?

    2/ Why do you think that Turkey's goverment still vehemently denies this tragic event of their history, almost a century after it was done? What purpose do you think such staunch denial have?

    3/ Why did the US goverment wait so long to officially declare it was a genocide?

    4/ What do you think of paragraph (30) of the HR252 Resolution?

    5/ Do you think that such a resolution is useful or not? Why?

    6/ To add some controversy: Should States always mess with the official writing of history, or rather let historians do their job?

    7/ Do you think this resolution is special, and why?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #2
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    A close Armenian friend of mine would be extremely pleased to answer these questions in full detail. I'll get him to see this thread a bit later. It seems his information on it is endless.

  3. #3
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    1/ What do you think of State-sponsored Negationism (like the one you have in Turkey)?

    The issue of the so-called Armenian genocide has been conflated with laws prohibiting "anti-Turkish" activity. It's a ridiculous law that only serves the ultra-nationalists.

    The main victims of Article 301 of the Turkish criminal code - which may mean talk of an Armenian genocide is a criminal offence - are actually Turks who have a mind to present a view that is not concordant with the official policy. Numerous Turkish journalists and writers have been arrested of "anti-Turkish" statements. One of Turkey's best known authors, Orhan Pamuk was treated similarly - although the case against him was dropped.

    But revisionism isn't limited to the Turks. In France the UMP voted in a law requiring the "positive role of colonialism" to be taught in French schools. Tell that to an Algerian that has been blow-torched.

    2/ Why do you think that Turkey's goverment still vehemently denies this tragic event of their history, almost a century after it was done? What purpose do you think such staunch denial have?

    The Turkish position is, as I understand, that the Armenians were a large fifth column that was treated in a manner commensurate to the existential threat they posed to the state at the time. This was the case as far back as 1880s - Britain and Russia being the main agents provocateur in various rebellions.

    Most educated Turks privately concede that mass-murder at the very least took place, but counter (tu quoque) that Turks were victims of inter-ethnic violence on a vast scale. The Imperial powers in Europe had every intention on splitting her up - our Mr Sykes and your Mssr Picot were drawing all sorts of lines on the map as you well know.

    The distinction between mass-murder and the emotionally charged phrase genocide is not an easy one. Morally though, it's splitting hairs. Ottoman Turkey is a long way away; it's like demanding of a Londoner that he should apologise for the deaths of women and children through starvation and neglect in the Boer campaign.

    In Turkey the policy of denial has not helped its case. If anything it had damaged its credibility and many conclude - rightly or wrongly - that such denial is indicative of guilt, which is of course not necessarily the case.

    3/ Why did the US goverment wait so long to officially declare it was a genocide?

    Blackmail! ...

    4/ What do you think of paragraph (30) of the HR252 Resolution?

    The big problem with the genocide accusation is the lack of any documentation linking any of the leaders to subsequent massacres and deportations. Quite simply there is no evidence that would stand up to any scrutiny in a court. Even the so-called Talat Pasha telegrams were regarded by the British as worthless without corroborating documentation. Hearsay is never good grounding for a prosecution, particularly after 95 years.

    This is not to say there was not a genocide, simply that there is an absence of evidence to support the claim. Passing any resolutions to the effect that there was is perceived as an injustice by the Turks.

    5/ Do you think that such a resolution is useful or not? Why?

    Well the Turks threaten (unspecified) retaliatory action. It's difficult to take any threats with any degree of seriousness, given their lack of retaliatory action against the French when they passed a similar law. That they did not retaliate against the French does not necessarily make the threats hollow.

    However, the AK party has already established cordial relations with many of its neighbours (notably Iran) and made some headway in attempting to normalise relations with Armenia - more so than any of its predecessors. The extent to which this motion would damage relations remains to be seen.

    6/ To add some controversy: Should States always mess with the official writing of history, or rather let historians do their job?

    Quite right. The issues are horribly confused and facts get tangled with fictions. Even Hitler's "Who remembers the Armenians" statement is largely viewed as fake.

    7/ Do you think this resolution is special, and why?

    No more special than the last one proposed, which was never put to a full house vote.

    Do you think this one will, Blackmail!?

  4. #4
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    What exactly is the "proud history of United States intervention in opposition to the Armenian Genocide."?
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  5. #5
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    ....I know some members of the Lakota Sioux and the Anishnabe tribes who might find this ironic.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  6. #6
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    what American help at the time? The only real, concrete help given by Americans during the Armenian genocide was through non-profit groups and individuals- the US has historically been great at not recognizing mass murder when it occurs! We probably wouldn't have even mentioned it in the first place if we hadn't joined WW1! :rolli:

    Of course, it's not so shocking that they'd take this long to recognize that anything happened- we take forever to realize our own mistakes and appologize, like internment camps, or the trail of tears! (which I have ancestors who were sent to Oklahoma that way )

    I don't think that us recognizing it now with the feeble effort of a resolution being passed is going to make much of a difference to Turkey- it's just going to give us bragging rights to other countries... any REAL difference in Turkey is going to take years and years and I don't think that outside interference would really change the mindset of the people there. At most what would likely happen is that we'd lose some military privlidges there
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #7
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    what American help at the time? The only real, concrete help given by Americans during the Armenian genocide was through non-profit groups and individuals- the US has historically been great at not recognizing mass murder when it occurs!
    Do you understand what genocide means? Blackmail! helpfully highlighted the relevant part; let me help you by highlighting it further: to accurately characterize the systematic and deliberate annihilation of 1,500,000 Armenians as genocide. .

    Of course, it's not so shocking that they'd take this long to recognize that anything happened- we take forever to realize our own mistakes and appologize, like internment camps, or the trail of tears! (which I have ancestors who were sent to Oklahoma that way )
    Whether there were mass killings of native Americans is actually irrelevant to whether there was an Armenian genocide.

    The West was won with tuberculosis. God bless america.

    The US does not have to be squeaky clean to make a pronouncement of genocide. The moral status of the accuser is irrelevant to the accusation.

    This is not to denigrate the victims in any way; only to make the point that genocide is not a word to be bandied about for political reasons.

    I don't think that us recognizing it now with the feeble effort of a resolution being passed is going to make much of a difference to Turkey- it's just going to give us bragging rights to other countries... any REAL difference in Turkey is going to take years and years and I don't think that outside interference would really change the mindset of the people there. At most what would likely happen is that we'd lose some military privlidges there
    Well, what Blackmail! does not say is that France has made it clear it does not want Turkey in the EU. One could speculate that entry into the EU by Turkey (which has an enormous agricultural surplus) would mean the death of the Common Agricultural Policy - which France is the major beneficiary [edit: and a great deal of other unpalatable changes].


  8. #8
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    what American help at the time? The only real, concrete help given by Americans during the Armenian genocide was through non-profit groups and individuals- the US has historically been great at not recognizing mass murder when it occurs!
    It took us something like eight years to become "officially" involved....We seem to be quite good now at recognizing genocidal events...yet we (and other major powers) will remain essentially neuteral in practical response. I suppose we are to be contented with what efforts our government may muster however impotent.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Of course, it's not so shocking that they'd take this long to recognize that anything happened- we take forever to realize our own mistakes and appologize, like internment camps, or the trail of tears!
    l cannot imagine that we would go to this expedient for purely altruistic reasons...Follow the money....Otherwise,why the rush now, 100 years later?
    If some practical end is achievable by surviving Armenians as a result of this resolution then, great. We do have enough of our own shortcomings and profound economic issues as a country to amend. And while most of Washington is officially "sorry" (on camera) for our various misdeeds, it generally does not extend to actual practical action on the part of the aggrieved. Though I believe very recently that the First People have recieved some remunerations for their profound losses.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I don't think that us recognizing it now with the feeble effort of a resolution being passed is going to make much of a difference to Turkey... At most what would likely happen is that we'd lose some military privlidges there
    Again if our representatives can persuade the Turkish government to make practical amends to the Armenians through this action then it is better than not doing it. Yet your are right, we may recieve retaliatory action in the closure or restriction of our airbases there. There is the Muslim/Christian aspect to this situation and given the times we are in the behind-the-scenes complexity of this seemingly simple effort may not be readily apparent. Like you, I remain skeptical regarding Washington's
    actual concern for the horrific persecution of the Armenians by the 19th and early 20th century Turks.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  9. #9
    sammy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    2/ Why do you think that Turkey's goverment still vehemently denies this tragic event of their history, almost a century after it was done? What purpose do you think such staunch denial have?
    Having such a staunch denial leaves little room for doubt in their own minds, as a collective. The moment you begin to doubt your own lies, is when the truth may inadvertently leak out. Guilt will begin to surface.

    Also, when a nation as proud as Turkey is trying to distance themselves from other Muslim countries, they don't want any hint of association with controversial topics, such as genocide, terrorism, etc. regarding their own actions. It seems like maintaining legitimacy is one of their main motivations.
    3/ Why did the US goverment wait so long to officially declare it was a genocide?
    We're using them. Can't declare our own ally a master of genocide, verdad? Even though we're still technically using them, the new administration made no secret of their views on genocide during the campaign.
    6/ To add some controversy: Should States always mess with the official writing of history, or rather let historians do their job?
    Let the historians do their job. States and historians may have their own motivations for writing the facts in the manner they choose, but at least historians of any nation analyze other nations more scrupulously than a politician would. Politicians need to maintain excellent relationships and not offend those other nations. Historians don't always give a rat's ass, unless they're being employed by Houghton-Mifflin or McGraw-Hill to write a textbook.

  10. #10
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Bananatrombones- with my background I'd have to be a complete and total dumbass to not know what genocide is... I'm not exactly made up of racially favored groups

    he asked for our OPINIONS and I gave an opinion from my perspective as an American Midwesterner... just like you gave a different perspective and so did blackmail! variety of opinions expressed is a good thing- I'm just pointing out that it's too fucking late to make a real difference to any of the genocide victims and that it's not the first time that the US has turned a blind eye or been too late in recognizing something :rolli: You don't have to shit a brick just because I'm looking at a different side of the issue than you are- it's a house bill here and I'm looking at its effects here because this is where I live and it's a different perspective than you guys have had

    Hirsch- I agree- we now can recognize genocide but it doesn't mean that we're actually going to do anything about it

    We of course appologize to the native americans well after the generations that were completely destroyed by our systematic moving and destruction of thier culture- and how do we do this? By offering an appology and the ability to open casinos?

    Yeah- it's a political move- why else would we bother doing something now
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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