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  1. #11
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Many questions.

    1/ What do you think of State-sponsored Negationism (like the one you have in Turkey)?

    2/ Why do you think that Turkey's goverment still vehemently denies this tragic event of their history, almost a century after it was done? What purpose do you think such staunch denial have?

    3/ Why did the US goverment wait so long to officially declare it was a genocide?

    4/ What do you think of paragraph (30) of the HR252 Resolution?

    5/ Do you think that such a resolution is useful or not? Why?

    6/ To add some controversy: Should States always mess with the official writing of history, or rather let historians do their job?

    7/ Do you think this resolution is special, and why?
    1.) The criminalization of challenges to specific historical interpretations goes against every principle I cherish and severely undermines the establishment and/or maintenance of a free society.

    2.) Acknowledging the Armenian genocide undermines the civil religion and national myths on which the Kemalist state is based; worries range from outside attempts to pressure Turkey into the role of a penitent state with a shame-filled citizenry (such as Germany) to emboldening domestic opponents (such as Kurds and Islamists) of Kemalist Turkish nationalism (which has its roots in the Young Turks and similar reform movements within the Ottoman Empire).

    3.) As far as I know, it still hasn't so far. The reason is pure state interests (which may or may not be consistent with the "greater good"); Turkey has been and (to a lesser extent) remains a very important strategic ally. This is similar to the Devil's Bargain we made with the PRC regarding Taiwan (where we publicly pretend to support china's official line, while blatantly demonstrating otherwise).

    4.) I'll address this later.

    5.) Frankly, no; I share the position of the Executive branch on this matter, and I think Obama is demonstrating responsible statesmanship on this issue.

    6.) Any state with public schools already does this to some extent; historians themselves often disagree on history, and the state (directly or indirectly) chooses who writes the textbooks.

    7.) Well, in moral terms its about as special as acknowledging the genocide in Rwanda (where less died, either proportionately or in absolute numbers, but where the perpetrators and some of the victims are still alive) while effectively doing nothing about it.

  2. #12
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    3/ Why did the US goverment wait so long to officially declare it was a genocide?

    7/ Do you think this resolution is special, and why?
    3/ From what I've heard, this resolution from the House of Representatives is nothing new, that they've done it every year or so and voted on whether to issue this "non-binding resolution." And I do recall a similar vote from around a year ago.

    7/ Turkey is more upset about this U.S. diplomatic stance than in previous years because it is currently working to improve relations with Armenia, and has gained some valuable diplomatic ground recently. Bringing this up again at this time is not helping.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  3. #13
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Lesser Evil

    All war is evil but sometimes it is necessary to choose the lesser of two evils.

    However war should be the last resort except in the case of genocide, where it should be the first.

    On top of this, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was written and adopted in response to the German genocide.

    However fifty-seven Islamic States have publicly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and as a result many deny the holocaust occurred as a way of undermining the reason for the Declaration.

    So it seems to me that to acknowledge the genocide of the Armenians is the lesser of two evils.

  4. #14
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So it seems to me that to acknowledge the genocide of the Armenians is the lesser of two evils.
    So how does one go about "acknowledging" a genocide without the inconvenience of first establishing a genocide took place.

    Using comparisons to the Holocaust is being a tad dishonest. The various Islamic countries that are not signatories claim the UDHR incompatability with Sharia and rejection of the secular notions of the UDHR, not Holocaust denial.

    So Victor. What is genocide? We can go through this bit by bit if you want.


  5. #15
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    The moral status of the accuser is irrelevant to the accusation.
    I don't think the accused would ever agree with this.
    And I'm not sure if I agree either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    Otherwise,why the rush now, 100 years later?
    Does it matter if it has happened one day, ten years or a century ago? The descendants want justice, and it is in their right to do so. A serious violation of human rights (yes, I love euphemisms) can not go unpunished.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Does it matter if it has happened one day, ten years or a century ago?
    Yes, the fact that this happened matters. Many of us have distant ancestors who could cry out for the same recognition....so where is their resolution? What are we owed if our ancient families were enslaved an murdered by the Roman Empire? Or tortured and killed by the Church? Or sytematically killed and stripped of our lands and culture by an invading cultural tsunami?

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    The descendants want justice, and it is in their right to do so.
    I have never personally spoken to an Armenian on this matter....I have spoken to other victims of similar injustice. They want recognition...and restitution yet know that they can never recover even a shard of what was stripped from them. This current action is simply a resolution in our House of representatives done for purely altruistic reasons? Can we restore the Armenians fortunes (without damaging their immediate situation) through this effort? If that were possible then by all means send the resolution forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    A serious violation of human rights (yes, I love euphemisms) can not go unpunished.
    And yet they do. And what practical "punishment" can be administered at this late date? Genocide is not a serious violation of Human Rights; it is the Ultimate violation. If the lives,fortunes and culture of the Armenians lost in this Turkish offensive could be restored, if any residual racism or political inequality could be obviated by this Congressional action that would be wonderful. That is not punishment; that would be restitution....So your desire for "Justice" may be reduced at best to a payoff for damages...I am still waiting for my apology and damages payment from the Roman Empire and the Catholic Church...don't understand why it is taking so long.....
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  7. #17
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    And yet they do. And what practical "punishment" can be administered at this late date? Genocide is not a serious violation of Human Rights; it is the Ultimate violation. If the lives,fortunes and culture of the Armenians lost in this Turkish offensive could be restored, if any residual racism or political inequality could be obviated by this Congressional action that would be wonderful. That is not punishment; that would be restitution....So your desire for "Justice" may be reduced at best to a payoff for damages...I am still waiting for my apology and damages payment from the Roman Empire and the Catholic Church...don't understand why it is taking so long.....
    You only have to look as far back as 15 years in Europe, to former-Yugoslavia, to see how readily some Europeans take to killing their ethnically different neighbours with unimaginable zeal. But Yugoslavia was not just inter-ethnic murder on a large scale - it was provably state-sponsored with a clear audit from the men at the top to the killers on the ground.

    No links have been found in the case of the so-called Armenian genocide to connect the Ottoman leaders of the time with massacres or deportations. Establishing this link is the critical difference between genocide and mass murder. When one subtracts the burden of proof the term looses any meaning. When we accuse a man of murder, we demand proof beyond reasonable doubt. Yet genocide, which is the gravest of accusations, is levelled against a particular state, without even a pretence of real evidence that would stand up against a "beyond reasonable doubt" test.

    But by pointing this out to you I am guilty of "Holocost Denial" in France and risk arrest in France. And should Victor take a stroll into one of Istanbul's many wonderful bakeries for his morning green smoothie, he is likely to be arrested for his views should he chose to vocalise them.

    We are fortunate that Typology Central's servers are in the US. Not France or Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    I don't think the accused would ever agree with this.
    And I'm not sure if I agree either.
    Well, we could consider China (the millions starved during the GLF), Russia (the millions killed in Stalin's purges), France (ask an Algerian), Britain (ask a Frenchman ) or the US (ask a native American, if you can find one) and question whether any of these have the correct level of moral rectitude to pass comment on anyone else. But then time is a great healer, if you believe in that sort of thing. BTW, can you spot which club these guys are members of?

    Does it matter if it has happened one day, ten years or a century ago? The descendants want justice, and it is in their right to do so. A serious violation of human rights (yes, I love euphemisms) can not go unpunished.
    Since you discount the possibility of letting sleeping dogs lie and reject the concept of time as a great healer, your notions of rightious punishment would see the abolition of the UN Security Council, international diplomacy, the EU and every other institution that attempts to get out of the jungle of past conficts that end up with idiotic national vendettas played out on the battlefield.

    According to your logic, even Norway (because of the carnage the Vikings brought to England - rape, murder, pillage) should show requisite contrition. And as a descendant of the Vikings' victims (and probably perpatrators as well ) demand justice from the Norwegian Government! And I want it now.

    You position is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    ... in response to the German genocide
    What German genocide? It was a Jewish genocide you foo'.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    What German genocide? It was a Jewish genocide you foo'.
    You know, the shoah gets a lot of press, and it should. I want it to get a lot of press.

    I would prefer it, however, if when the Holocaust is remembered, that the gays and the epileptics and the political undesirables and the developmentally disabled and everyone else who was sent to the camps as "useless eaters" would be remembered too. Because they were not an easily-categorized group, they tend to be forgotten.

    This is no dig against you, bt... just an observation.

    EDIT: Oh, and the gypsies. I didn't mean to forget the Romani. Sorry.

  9. #19
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    My language skills fail me to further discuss this topic.

    Short answer:

    - We both see that the current turkish state can be considered more of a successor of the Ottoman Empire than the current norwegian state as a successor of the vikings, this is a little too far-fetched hyperbole.

    - I do think that the punishment is either extendable to the Russian Federation because of the purges in the USSR, to the United States because of indian affairs, to France because of Algeria etc. OR we may initiate a UN resolution declaring a "clean slate" for all of the aforementioned countries, including Turkey.

    - I do think that the UN Security council and the EU needs to be abolished to enable the possibility of creating a more efficient supranational organization, and to avoid "idiotic national vendettas" in the future. That would help us to get one step closer to that particular "clean slate".

    Until then, such crimes must be dealt with efficiently. Let us leave the issues of succession of states (which countries are accountable for their predecessors sins) to international law authorities. I don't think it's a matter of centuries btw.

  10. #20
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    My language skills fail me to further discuss this topic.

    Short answer:

    - We both see that the current turkish state can be considered more of a successor of the Ottoman Empire than the current norwegian state as a successor of the vikings, this is a little too far-fetched hyperbole.
    So this is your test of state culpability? Well let's put Turkey to the Litvyak Test.

    The abolition of the Sultanate in 1922, the expulsion of the last Sultan and the enormous cultural and political changes instituted by Ataturk suggest quite the opposite to what you are saying. However, the change of name to "Republic" is the big clue.

    Do you really think post-revolutionary Turkey is "more of a successor of the Ottoman Empire"? This is laughable, Litvyak.

    But. Short answer. Turkey is one of the best examples of political transformation you are likely to find, from Sultanate to Republic, head of Empire to nation sstate, pre-revolutionary decline to rebirth of a nation - all in the space of a few years.

    Your argument fails its own test. Badly.

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