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  1. #271
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    While I agree with you that the state (whether the S is capital or lowercase) is not something that people should have faith in, I also see that a great many people in the world put a great deal of faith in the State nonetheless. I personally believe that this faith is unfounded.
    At least the state is real!!

    Thank you.. thank you.. I'm done here. *bows*

  2. #272
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Crap, I'm on this thread too much again.

    I WILL LEAVE IT ALONE.

    Really!

    Maybe!
    Why?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #273
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I am not aware of a first-world nation that does not have both compulsory education and public-funded, government-administered schools.

    While I agree with you that the state (whether the S is capital or lowercase) is not something that people should have faith in, I also see that a great many people in the world put a great deal of faith in the State nonetheless. I personally believe that this faith is unfounded.
    Are you playing with the meaning of the word "faith"? If you were intellectually honest, you would automatically recognize that "faith in the fact that there will be functioning schools" and "faith in catholic church" are quite different kinds of "faith". The latter has "credence" or "creed" as synonym, the former doesn't.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #274
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Are you playing with the meaning of the word "faith"? If you were intellectually honest, you would automatically recognize that "faith in the fact that there will be functioning schools" and "faith in catholic church" are quite different kinds of "faith". The latter has "credence" or "creed" as synonym, the former doesn't.
    Wordplay? Me? Yes, I do wordplay, but not this time.

    It's not the primary point of the discussion in any case, but truly faith in the church vs. faith in the state are actually both parallel and equivalent, as both are entirely human institutions. Both the church and the state can provide schools, say for example, and both can fail in their educational efforts.

    If you are trying to draw a distinction between "faith" in one sense and "faith" in another, I agree that you're correct... but I disagree that the distinction applies to the current discussion. In the 19th century in the US, the default frame of reference for any event in his or her life was faith in God, and the believer with a problem would work toward its solution in faith that God would ultimately resolve it. In the present, for a great many people, you can substitute "government" in the place of "God" in the above sentence and have an accurate statement... their default frame of reference for any event in his or her life is faith in government, and the citizen with a problem believes that government should ultimately resolve it.

    People proceed with their lives based on the assumption that government can and should address every human problem. This is a point of view that didn't exist for the majority of human history.

  5. #275
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Wordplay? Me? Yes, I do wordplay, but not this time.

    It's not the primary point of the discussion in any case, but truly faith in the church vs. faith in the state are actually both parallel and equivalent, as both are entirely human institutions. Both the church and the state can provide schools, say for example, and both can fail in their educational efforts.

    If you are trying to draw a distinction between "faith" in one sense and "faith" in another, I agree that you're correct... but I disagree that the distinction applies to the current discussion. In the 19th century in the US, the default frame of reference for any event in his or her life was faith in God, and the believer with a problem would work toward its solution in faith that God would ultimately resolve it. In the present, for a great many people, you can substitute "government" in the place of "God" in the above sentence and have an accurate statement... their default frame of reference for any event in his or her life is faith in government, and the citizen with a problem believes that government should ultimately resolve it.

    People proceed with their lives based on the assumption that government can and should address every human problem. This is a point of view that didn't exist for the majority of human history.
    The existance of the state is obvious and beyond doubt, while the existance of God is, at best, hypothetical.

    The relevant distintion is therefor that faith in the state is based on an actual track record of actions and the acting enteties are known and their past performance can be evaluated based on hard data, which allows to predict their future actions and attitudes with some degree of reliability.

    God however, is an unproven concept, of which we do not know if he or it has ever actually done anything at all, how he has done it and therefor no predictions can be made as to the reliability of any predictions that have God as the agent.

    Therefor, "faith in the state" is largely based on reason and facts, it is based on the expectation that the state will perform in the future like it has in the past, or is presently functioning in some other place in the world. If it did not perform well in the past, it will not generate widespread trust or faith in the population.

    To trust in God, you first need to accept that he exists without seeing any evidence for that, and then you have to trust the people that supposedly speak in his name. You have to trust that the account the give of God's actions is accurate, again without any hard evidence.

    To believe in God, you thus choose to trust mere words, while the state and its institutions can be evaluated based on their deeds and actions, so these two types of "faith" are not in fact comparable.

  6. #276
    Oberon
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    Thank you, DR, for neatly summarizing the post-modern perspective on God.

    Needless to say, Dietrich Bonhoeffer didn't see it that way... and that was just last century.

  7. #277
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Thank you, DR, for neatly summarizing the post-modern perspective on God.

    Needless to say, Dietrich Bonhoeffer didn't see it that way... and that was just last century.
    Well allow me to cite another one of DR's countrymen on this issue:
    All significant concepts of the modern theory of the state are secularized theological concepts not only because of their historical development - in which they were transferred from theology to the theory of the state, whereby, for example, the omnipotent god became the omnipotent lawgiver - but also because of their systematic structure, the recognition of which is necessary for a sociological consideration of these concepts. The exception in jurisprudence is analogous to the miracle in theology. Only by being aware of this analogy can we appreciate the manner in which the philosophical ideas of the state developed in the last centuries.
    -Carl Schmitt, Political Theology

    So thus trying to seperate politics from theology is not only impossible but also rather pointless.

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