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  1. #241
    heart on fire
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    "In our dreams, we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning, or of science.

    We have not to raise up from among them authors, editors, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, statesmen, of whom we have an ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is a very simple as well as a very beautiful one, to train these people as we find them to a perfectly ideal life just where they are. So we will organize our children and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the homes, in the shops, and on the farm."

    --Occasional Letter No.1, The General Education Board, 1903, organized by J.D. Rockefeller, with Fred T. Gates, and Andrew Carnegie as a trustee. Letter written by Fred T. Gates.

  2. #242
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    "In our dreams, we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning, or of science.

    We have not to raise up from among them authors, editors, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, statesmen, of whom we have an ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is a very simple as well as a very beautiful one, to train these people as we find them to a perfectly ideal life just where they are. So we will organize our children and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the homes, in the shops, and on the farm."

    --Occasional Letter No.1, The General Education Board, 1903, organized by J.D. Rockefeller, with Fred T. Gates, and Andrew Carnegie as a trustee. Letter written by Fred T. Gates.
    Sounds eve worse than european "statalist" proposals. "Let the children of farmers be farmers forever". Providing an equal footing seems to be a much better solution from the children perspective; later, when he will have developed his preferences, he will be free to choose between farming and other available jobs.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  3. #243
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    See, I think your logic is flawed. That would depend entirely on the context of the homeschooling. How is homeschooling itself doing that, rather than the people who do it?

    Banning homeschooling would do nothing. People could still bring up their kids however they wanted and would still instill certain values into them.
    Sure, but when homeschooling, parents are able to keep other values and different point of view away from the child, possibly in a very complete manner. While in a public school, there are a number of different teachers, all with slightly different opinions, and more importantly, a lot of other children, all of which have different personal and socioeconomic backgrounds. Therefor any child will be exposed to many different ways of viewing and living life, and will eventually be able to decide on their own what viewpoint to them is the most truthful / useful.

    If they are homeschooled, they might never leave their peer / kin group and thus have no ability to form an understanding of life and the world that goes beyond the understanding that his / her parents have of those things.

    So, potentially, homeschooling keeps information AWAY from the child, while learning in a public space exposes it to a variety of different types of information. Public schooling is therefor likely to help more progressive values to permeate society, while homeschooling is more likely to conserve outdated ones.

    Additionally, because public schooling is by definition public, it is much easier to provide oversight and prevent possible abuses of the child (this happens naturally, as abuses will be noted by one of the many ppl present there eventually). If we allowed homeschooling we'd have to send inspectors to every homeschooling person regurlarly, which would be close to impossible, and they might not even be effective because people can just play-act while they are being evaluated.


    I wish we had a time machine at our hands so we could send Peguy back in time where he can enjoy the high life in 13th century Europe. Here is a picture of what awaits you if you aren't looking "devout" enough, though.



    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I grew up Texas and went to school with mostly devout Christians. I had never even been inside a chruch so that was a real cultural shock. Me being raised freethinking going to school with children and teachers who are only too happy to claim that you're gonna go the hell if you aren't saved. So your premise here, to me, is foriegn. Whatever is the prevailing view in that community is going to be rampant in the local school.
    In that case, I would consider it the resposibility of the federal government to send progressive teachers into those backwards regions like Texas to alleviate that situation. Think of it like development aid.

  4. #244
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    send progressive teachers into those backwards regions like Texas to alleviate that situation. Think of it like development aid.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #245
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    We need more cult leaders in our society, god bless homeschoolers.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  6. #246
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    In that case, I would consider it the resposibility of the federal government to send progressive teachers into those backwards regions like Texas to alleviate that situation. Think of it like development aid.
    In the US, people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe, even if it may seem backwards. It's why the US has so much more religious freedom. You'll never see hijab banned in their public schools.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #247
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    Sure, but when homeschooling, parents are able to keep other values and different point of view away from the child, possibly in a very complete manner. While in a public school, there are a number of different teachers, all with slightly different opinions, and more importantly, a lot of other children, all of which have different personal and socioeconomic backgrounds. Therefor any child will be exposed to many different ways of viewing and living life, and will eventually be able to decide on their own what viewpoint to them is the most truthful / useful.
    Again, I'd say I had this better than most public schooled students do.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #248
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Good Peer Groups

    Parents start to lose control of their children as they enter adolescence.

    This is because adolescents transfer their dependence on their parents to their peer group.

    However a parent can still decide which peer group their child will belong to.

    The parent can decide to live in a good neighbourhood. The parent can decide to send their child to a good school. The parent can mix in good social circles. The parent can mix in good intellectual circles, or artistic circles or sporting circles.

    The adolescent can only see what is around them. And if the parent surrounds them with good circles, the adolescent will join good peer groups, as they lessen their dependence on their parents and move towards independence.

  9. #249
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Well said, Victor. We're on the cusp of that transition with our daughter right now.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #250
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    In that case, I would consider it the resposibility of the federal government to send progressive teachers into those backwards regions like Texas to alleviate that situation. Think of it like development aid.
    sure, sure, like maybe Detroit could send in some of their finest.

    Does DPS leader's writing send wrong message? | detnews.com | The Detroit News

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