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  1. #231
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Evangelical Christians...
    .. and Jesuits.

  2. #232
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    Goodbye Dear Prussians

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...it's what made the Germans (particularly the Prussians) such very good soldiers.
    Prussian pedagogy has been adopted all over the world to teach children to read and write.

    This was necessary for very few children learn to read and write naturally at home. So they had to be compelled by law to go to special institutions called schools, with staff trained in Prussian pedagogy, to learn to read and write.

    But today almost all children learn to use the telephone, the television, the radio, the ipod and the internet at home quite naturally.

    In fact children today learn to use the telephone, the television, the radio, the ipod and the internet in the same natural way that they learn to speak their own language, without being compelled to go to school by law.

    So we should thank the Prussians for giving us universal literacy, and wave goodbye to them as we talk on the telephone, watch the television, listen to the radio, dance to the ipod and commune with one another on the internet.

  3. #233
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    After having carefully anayzed those stats, I'd say that my worst fears have been confirmed.
    I don't think this really is your worst fear, but if it is, it's not surprising that a European would fear individual choice.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #234
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Keep public school strong. Let home schooling be legal with some measures of oversight. Both have different kinds of results, but I'd say are equal in value of outcome.

    The vast majority of the time, I side with European views over the American ones. Not today. I think you guys are being sensationalists about something that is foreign to you.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #235
    Senior Member sketchymcsketcherson's Avatar
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    Oberon posted the following excerpt from Wikipedia:

    Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests. Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.
    I can say that this is probably true. Most homeschool students do, in fact, outperform their public-educated peers. At worst, they are neck-to-neck.

    But I've noticed that homeschoolers really lack the street smarts and practical knowledge that make a person a functioning member of society. Just because you can solve calculus in 10th grade does NOT mean that you have been fitted with the thinking skills necessary for modern society.
    For art to exist, for any sort of aesthetic activity to exist, a certain physiological precondition is indispensable: intoxication. -- Friedrich Nietzsche

  6. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Keep public school strong. Let home schooling be legal with some measures of oversight. Both have different kinds of results, but I'd say are equal in value of outcome.

    The vast majority of the time, I side with European views over the American ones. Not today. I think you guys are being sensationalists about something that is foreign to you.
    I've spent the better part of an hour reading this entire thread, and this post encapsulates my conclusions.

    Perhaps my experience hasn't been broad, but this is the first time I've ever heard the idea that homeschooling is largely tied to devout religious belief. I have no doubt that this is true for some homeschooling families, but my gut reaction is to guess is that this is simply the easiest way to discredit the value of homeschooling. It has proved in the past the easiest way to discredit intelligent design and sexual responsibility, even though those ideas have value completely outside of a religious context.

    I think that homeschooling should be a rare effort to salvage a child's education, and not entered into lightly. However, I do think there are times when it is the best option. I can't question a parent living in a terrible school district who has a legitimate fear that their child is wasting away. If I were to homeschool, it would simply be to provide my children a better education than that available in my local school district. It would have nothing to do with a general distrust of public education or any indoctrination conducted there, secular or otherwise.

    Any parents who take their children's education seriously enough to consider homeschooling have already demonstrated more investment in their child's success than it is possible for a public school teacher with 30 children in his charge to match. Yes, a parent can and should participate in the child's public schooling by keeping up with their assignments and making sure the child is learning. But nothing can replace the attention of the 1:1 teacher/student ratio available in homeschooling. And after having been acquainted with education majors in college and teachers in my adult life, I see no reason why a reasonably educated parent cannot replicate their efforts at home. This is not to denigrate teachers, but merely to point out that there is no inherent reason why they are better educators than parents. It's not as if the top 5% of college graduates are siphoned off and hired as teachers.

    I think the socialization question is a real concern, albeit one whose consequences have been exaggerated. The options for after school activities, sports and clubs are a good deal better in both number and variety than they were when I was in school in the late 70s and 80s. Some kids are even overscheduled by ambitious parents. I think this mitigates any concern over lost socialization in school.

    In the end, I think homeschooling, while a desperate measure, should absolutely be a legal one. I also think that homeschooled kids should be subject to the same achievement testing as public school students in the basic subjects of reading, writing, mathematics and the sciences. These tests are by no means rigorous, and homeschooled children should be protected against incompetent education as much as public school children (theoretically) are.

    I really do not understand the almost phobic fear of homeschooling displayed by some posters in the thread, particularly those who live in Europe. I feel that they either display too much faith in public institutions or an insufficiently nuanced understanding of the religious personality of America. (The latter of which would be understandable, as they don't live here.)
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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    /Nohari

  7. #237
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Frankly I think the US has things backwards.

    The courts may not agree with me, but I think arguably public education is a violation of the 5th amendment and due process.

    How does compelling a person to sit in a room in a building for 6 hours a day for 12 years not a taking of life and liberty?
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #238
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    Free, Compulsory and Secular

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    How does compelling a person to sit in a room in a building for 6 hours a day for 12 years not a taking of life and liberty?
    This is a very good question. And it has a very good answer.

    And the answer is -

    The price of universal literacy is free, compulsory and secular education.

    And it is necessarily compulsory for almost no one learns to read and write naturally at home. We must be compelled by law to go to special institutions, with special teachers to learn to read and write.

    Compare this to how we learn to speak our own language. We learn to speak our own language naturally at home. So we say learning to speak is intuitive or natural but learning to read and write is counter-intuitive or unnatural.

    Fortunately the world is changing and our minds are changing with it, for now we learn to speak on the telephone, watch TV, listen to the radio, dance to our ipod and commune on the internet, intuitively, naturally at home.

    The printing press was invented in 1440 and gave rise to compulsory literacy in the modern world, but the electric telegraph was invented in 1840 and is returning us to our senses in the noosphere.

  9. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post

    The price of universal literacy is free, compulsory and secular education.
    And in America, we've exposed that delusion for what it is.

  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    And in America, we've exposed that delusion for what it is.
    That's interesting. How have you exposed it?

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