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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    From outside it kind of looks like the US is always just one step away from descending back into the 13th century, which is kind of scary actually.
    Dear God we don't want that. :rolli:

    Either of these attitudes of mind will yield at once to a more properly receptive mood if it is recalled that the Thirteenth is the century of the Gothic cathedrals, of the foundation of the university, of the signing of Magna Charta, and of the origin of representative government with something like constitutional guarantees throughout the west of Europe. The cathedrals represent a development in the arts that has probably never been equaled either before or since. The university was a definite creation of these generations that has lived and maintained its usefulness practically in the same form in which it was then cast for the seven centuries ever since. The foundation stones of modern liberties are to be found in the documents which for the first time declared the rights of man during this precious period...

    ...The Thirteenth Century claims such wonderful churchmen as St. Francis and St. Dominic, and while it has only the influence of St. Hugh of Lincoln, who died just as it began, it can be proud of St. Edmund of Canterbury, Stephen Langton, and Robert Grosseteste, all men whose place in history is due to what they did for their people, and such magnificent women as Queen Blanche of Castile, St. Clare of Assisi, and St. Elizabeth of Hungary. The century opened with one of the greatest of the Popes on the throne, Innocent III, and it closed with the most misunderstood of Popes, who is in spite of this one of the worthiest successors of Peter, Boniface VIII. During the century there had been such men as Honorius IV, the Patron of Learning, Gregory IX, to whom Canon Law owes so much, and John XXI, who had been famous as a scientist before becoming Pope. There are such scholars as St. Thomas of Aquin, Albertus Magnus, Roger Bacon, St. Bonaventure, Duns Scotus, Raymond Lully, Vincent of Beauvais, and Alexander of Hales, and such patrons of learning as Robert of Sorbonne, and the founders of nearly twenty universities. There were such artists as Gaddi, Cimabue, and above all Giotto, and such literary men as the authors of the Arthur Legends and the Nibelungen, the Meistersingers, the Minnesingers, the Troubadours, and Trouvères, and above all Dante, who is universally considered now to be one of the greatest literary men of all times, but who was not, as is so often thought and said, a solitary phenomenon in the period, but only the culmination of a great literary movement that had to have some such supreme expression of itself as this in order to properly round out the cycle of its existence."
    Thirteenth Greatest of all Centuries


  2. #222
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    It does appear to me though, that homeschooling is in part responsible for all the (religious and other) crazyness you see in the USA that just doesn't exist in other countries of the West. From outside it kind of looks like the US is always just one step away from descending back into the 13th century, which is kind of scary actually.
    I grew up Texas and went to school with mostly devout Christians. I had never even been inside a chruch so that was a real cultural shock. Me being raised freethinking going to school with children and teachers who are only too happy to claim that you're gonna go the hell if you aren't saved. So your premise here, to me, is foriegn. Whatever is the prevailing view in that community is going to be rampant in the local school.


    So in summary, I am very sceptical of homeschooling as a valid means to prepare children for their later life and I do fear that homeschooling helps to preserve backwards and dangerous attitudes in society.

    My school endorsed the "Football is King" viewpoint. I am so glad I was indoctrinated into this life saving attitude and so grateful that my father's disdain for football did not warp me for life. :eyeroll:

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Folks, don't mistakenly identify Razor's mode of thinking as being "Nazi." It's not.

    It is, however, representative of a certain strain of the German national character. It predates the Nazis and the Kaiser, and it's what made the Germans (particularly the Prussians) such very good soldiers..
    We'd probably lost our arse without Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben, so respect where it is due, but...

  4. #224
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    I've checked the datas presented by the HSLDA very carefully.

    And I've noticed this:

    94% of the families that homeschool are WHITE

    97.3% of the families that homeschool are traditional maried couples

    In 87.7% of the families that homeschool, the wife is a stay at home mother with no employment

    Almost all the family income is provided by the husband. The likelihood that the husband has reached a higher academic achievement than his wife is more than 4 to one.

    The median income of homeschooling families is 69% higher than the median income of American families with children.

    Homeschooling families also have far more children than the national average.

    The overwhelming majority of the families that homeschool are Christians, with a strong preference for Independent Fundamental (25.1%) or other extreme Christian belief. Evangelical faith represent at least 61.8% of the homeschooling families, and probably a lot more since traditional churches (Roman Catholic, Reformed) only represent a clear minority.

    -----

    If you take into account all these factors, you will eventually conclude that despite the claim that Homeschool children have better results overall, it is not different from people from the same socio-economic category. And at a matter of fact, when you harmonize their datas, you will notice that homeschool children will go less at university than children from the same socio-economic background. So the way these claims are shown is extremely biased, and not convincing at all.

    -----

    Anyway, these stats are frightening. The typical homeschooling family is a very conservative, Christian white family with traditional values, even if you have a few isolated exceptions. In Europe, those families would indeed be considered as EXTREMELY backwards, socially and culturally speaking.

    After having carefully anayzed those stats, I'd say that my worst fears have been confirmed.
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  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I've checked the datas presented by the HSLDA very carefully.

    And I've noticed this:

    94% of the familiies that homeschool are WHITE

    97.3% of the families that homeschool are traditional maried couples

    In 87.7% of the families that homeschool, the wife is a stay at home mother with no employment

    Almost all the family income is provided by the husband. The likelihood that the husband reached a higher academic achievement than his wife is more than 4 to one.

    The median income of homeschooling families is 69% higher than the median income of American families with children.

    Homeschooling families also have far more children than the national average.

    The overwhelming majority of the families that homeschool are Christians, with a strong preference for Independent Fundamental (25.1%) or other extreme Christian belief. Traditional churches (Roman Catholic, Reformed) represent a tiny minority.

    -----

    If you take into account all these factors, you will eventually conclude that despite the claim that Homeschool children have better results overall, it is not different from people from the same socio-economical category. And at a matter of fact, when you harmonize their datas, you will notice that homeschool children will go less at university than children from the same socio-economical background. So the way these claims are shown are extremely biased, and not convincing at all.

    -----

    Anyway, these stats are frightening. The typical homeschooling family is a very conservative, Christian white family with traditional values, even if you have a few isolated exceptions. In Europe, those families would indeed be considered as EXTREMELY backwards, socially and culturally speaking.

    After having carefully anayzed those stats, I'd say that my worst fears have been confirmed.
    That was my impression after reading the stats, too. I tried to place those families my socio-cultural context, they ended up being the typical backward extra-catholic (but economically sufficiently successful) family living in a really isolated small town.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Folks, don't mistakenly identify Razor's mode of thinking as being "Nazi." It's not.

    It is, however, representative of a certain strain of the German national character. It predates the Nazis and the Kaiser, and it's what made the Germans (particularly the Prussians) such very good soldiers. At a gut level they just intrinsically understood the requirements of a command structure, and how to sacrifice the individual on behalf of the commander, and by extension the state. It's as natural as breathing, and Razor's not to be blamed. He is the product of his culture, and of course those fine government schools.

    I could not have in my wildest dreams asked for a better illustration of what I do not want my children to become, however.

    Thank you, DR.
    What you wrote about "Germans" is so incredibly stupid I hope most of them will be intelligent enough not to take offense about it.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That was my impression after reading the stats, too. I tried to place those families my socio-cultural context, they ended up being the typical backward extra-catholic (but economically sufficiently successful) family living in a really isolated small town.
    Exactly.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Dear God we don't want that. :rolli:



    Thirteenth Greatest of all Centuries

    It wasn't like that in the US in the thirteenth century, that's for sure... Actually, it would be pretty stinking cool if the US reverted to the thirteenth century. It'd be like Avatar before the infiltrators came and took over!

    C'mon, can we return the US to C13? Please?

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    I am German and I support the ban on home schooling in Germany. The material taught in public schools is based on a broad consensus of the responsible administrative bodies, and additionally, curricula in Germany are the responsibility of individual states, i.e. are not determined / dictated by the federal government.

    Personally I believe that certain viewpoints held by some people (like religious fundamentalism) are backwards and in todays society are completely invalid. Any progressive society shold work to eliminate those viewpoints because they are detrimental to the overall development and well-being of the majority of individuals that compromise "society".

    That doesnt mean that public scholling is perfect, but overall it offers better control mechanisms as to how children develop and therefor offers the opportunity for early intervention if problems are detected. Though I am opposed to excessive intrusion into the private lifes of students / parents, one has to find a blance here between prevention of problems and having faith in people's ability to solve their own problems.

    It does appear to me though, that homeschooling is in part responsible for all the (religious and other) crazyness you see in the USA that just doesn't exist in other countries of the West. From outside it kind of looks like the US is always just one step away from descending back into the 13th century, which is kind of scary actually.

    I would question if people that have crazy religious views are even fit to raise children at all, and I view "devout" religion as something backwards that the state and public education system should work to overcome to create a more tolerant and peaceful society.

    If we allowed homeschooling we certainly would need some kind of test if parents are actually able to teach their children. I dont think anyone without college level education should be allowed to homeschool ever.

    So in summary, I am very sceptical of homeschooling as a valid means to prepare children for their later life and I do fear that homeschooling helps to preserve backwards and dangerous attitudes in society. I do recognize that potentially in a repressive state / environment it can actually be the opposite, but presently such an environment does not exist in any country of the west. I udnerstand that people like evangelical christians feel they are protecting their children from a repressive and dangerous / sinfull environment, but they are unfortunately wrong / delusional. By overcoming their delusional viewpoints, the overall quality of life in the areas where they dominate could likely be increased.
    See, I think your logic is flawed. That would depend entirely on the context of the homeschooling. How is homeschooling itself doing that, rather than the people who do it?

    Banning homeschooling would do nothing. People could still bring up their kids however they wanted and would still instill certain values into them.
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    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    School here doesn't replace family. I'm not sure about France. Kids might be exposed to choice here, but until they are 18, they are subject to their parents' values and ideologies.
    I do not think you have understood what I said.
    When I said children must have the choice, it's not School values OR Family values, it's BOTH. They complete each other. Each social context, each social unit has its purpose and must be balanced, put into perspective by the other.



    I don't homeschool out of fear, and I never have. I homeschool because I have always intuited it was the best choice, emotionally and intellectually, for my children. No doubt some fancy PREP school could educate them more soundly, but isn't there something to be said for a child's attachment to family? Do you think attachment to family is wrong? Or bad?
    I didn't say attachment to family is wrong. For instance I like my family, but there are other things in life to discover. It's rather the EXCLUSIVE attachment to family that can likely lead to toxic situations. And this is what happens in most case of homeschooling, IMHO.



    Perfectionist at all? It sounds like quite the taskmaster standard you are promoting there. I think being an intellectual should be balanced with other things, like feeling like a valuable part of a family; being exposed to various activities, not just of the academic variety; and having enough 'down time' to explore various muses that might not otherwise crop up in a directive atmosphere. Perhaps a person would not score 2400 on their SAT that way, but they just might be a well-rounded and content individual nonetheless. What's more important?
    It's not a question of balance or perfectionism, it's rather a question of intellectual honesty. It's not that easy to think you can do better than a professional teacher who has worked hard to obtain his diploma. For instance, teaching history from a neutral, scientific perspective is extremely hard, and requires a specific training.

    It's would be demagogic to pretend that even if we have the required knowledges, everybody can be a good educationalist. Pedagogy is a complex science, and effective methods can greatly vary according to the age of the children.
    For instance, while I think I'm rather a good university teacher, I'm not sure at all I could be a good junior high school teacher.



    That sounds really great. I don't really know how our private schools are here, but the general feeling is that they are better than public. That's probably why not many feel the need to homeschool there; you just have a better model of community in general perhaps than we do.
    After having analyzed the stats provided by Oberon, I'd say that the academic success of children seems to be more correlated to socio-economic status of the parents than any other factor.

    Similar white, stable middle class families who would send their children to public schools would obtain more or less the same academic result, IMHO. And these children would be better prepared for university.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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