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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Folks, don't mistakenly identify Razor's mode of thinking as being "Nazi." It's not.

    It is, however, representative of a certain strain of the German national character. It predates the Nazis and the Kaiser, and it's what made the Germans (particularly the Prussians) such very good soldiers. At a gut level they just intrinsically understood the requirements of a command structure, and how to sacrifice the individual on behalf of the commander, and by extension the state. It's as natural as breathing, and Razor's not to be blamed. He is the product of his culture, and of course those fine government schools.

    I could not have in my wildest dreams asked for a better illustration of what I do not want my children to become, however.

    Thank you, DR.
    Deutschlandlied - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Creepy. Pathetic. Fucked.

  2. #212
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Folks, don't mistakenly identify Razor's mode of thinking as being "Nazi." It's not.

    It is, however, representative of a certain strain of the German national character. It predates the Nazis and the Kaiser, and it's what made the Germans (particularly the Prussians) such very good soldiers. At a gut level they just intrinsically understood the requirements of a command structure, and how to sacrifice the individual on behalf of the commander, and by extension the state. It's as natural as breathing, and Razor's not to be blamed. He is the product of his culture, and of course those fine government schools.

    I could not have in my wildest dreams asked for a better illustration of what I do not want my children to become, however.

    Thank you, DR.
    It is always interesting to get a different perspective on your opinions.

    Thank you Oberon.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    As I said earlier Oberon, it dates back to Fitche's lectures.
    Of course. It was a Prussian thing, after all.

  4. #214
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    That post from dark razor was horrifying.

  5. #215
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Oh, so you've observed that homeschoolers do poorly in later life? Being 'skeptical of homeschoolers doing well in later life' is quite a reach, and obviously involves faulty logic, because that's not what I have observed. I'd encourage you to keep more of an open mind, or at least investigate a bit more on the homeschooling side, or you will continue to waste your time, and others', on incorrect and faulty assumptions.
    The question here is really, how, in general, does homeschooling and the attitudes it perpetuates influence the lifes of people who belong to the same society?

    For example, if it promotes backwards religious attitudes like intolarance and hatred of anything "different", as well as the regression of scientific advances ( like teaching creationism instead of evolution), then other persons who simply want to live their lifes free from harrassment of the Crazy are affected by this reservoir of intolerant and backwards type of people / attitudes.

    So it's not only about the children being homeschooled, but about everyone else as well. The question is, what do we want to be the predominante attitudes and understanding of things to be in the society we live in.

    You might think that all the different attitudes can coexist in society, but every person who is alligned with a certain point of view to some degree infuences the people around them, and therefor influences the direction society and policy as a whole will take. So, attitudes and opinions that someone spreads by teaching, are not primarily a private but a public matter. If you are alligned with a certain point of view, you naturally want the oppossing point of view to be contained in some way so that your prefered way of life is not threatened.

    So the question I am asking is not really "how well will children do later in life" but "how will the attitudes instilled in children via the means of homeschooling potentially change the makeup of society, and do I consider that change to be positive or negative?"

    I realize that the two questions are not diametrically opposed to each other, but rather belong to two different kinds of motivations. Parents naturally want to teach their children in a way that they believe is best for them, irrespective of what anyone else is thinking. However, my concern, especially if I were responsible for public policy, is more along the lines of "how does this influence the people that interact with the home-schooled person, and how does this change the makeup of society as a whole, can this attitude be allowed to spread or should it be contained?."

    Basically, I would like the values that I support to emerge dominant in the society I live in, and since some values cannot coexist in any reasonable manner, I'd rather have that the values I cherish predominate rather than those that I oppose and that restrict the way of life that I desire.

    So the question of how education is conducted is not simply a parent <> child question, but has a much wider impact that needs to be considered.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    The question here is really, how, in general, does homeschooling and the attitudes it perpetuates influence the lifes of people who belong to the same society?
    Pardon me please, but why is that the question?

  7. #217
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    For example, if it promotes backwards religious attitudes like intolarance and hatred of anything "different"
    And you're not showing this right now?

  8. #218
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    Dark Razor, I have a rather more interesting question to ask:

    Have you heard of a man named Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and if so, what is your opinion of him?

    I'll let you know why this is significant after I've read your answer, if there is one.

  9. #219
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    It does appear to me though, that homeschooling is in part responsible for all the (religious and other) crazyness you see in the USA that just doesn't exist in other countries of the West. From outside it kind of looks like the US is always just one step away from descending back into the 13th century, which is kind of scary actually.
    As an American, I've got a tell you, there are far too many devout religious people and far too few home schoolers for that to add up. The reasons we have such a strong religious streak must come from other causes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    For example, if it promotes backwards religious attitudes like intolarance and hatred of anything "different", as well as the regression of scientific advances ( like teaching creationism instead of evolution), then other persons who simply want to live their lifes free from harrassment of the Crazy are affected by this reservoir of intolerant and backwards type of people / attitudes.
    I seem to be a counter-example to your premise.
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  10. #220
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    I am German and I support the ban on home schooling in Germany. The material taught in public schools is based on a broad consensus of the responsible administrative bodies, and additionally, curricula in Germany are the responsibility of individual states, i.e. are not determined / dictated by the federal government...
    I'm somewhat skeptical of home-schooling, too. It seems to me (at least according to what I've heard in the media in the US) that most parents that home-school do so for religious reasons. My parents fell into that group. I wasn't home-schooled, but some of my siblings were for a few years. My parents were not (what I would consider to be) qualified to teach. I think that experiment seriously hindered the academic development of a couple of my siblings and it was totally unfair to them. That said, I don't think home-schooling should be illegal. I just think there should be some restrictions. Parents should be required to demonstrate that they are, in some way, competent to teach. Those requirements are totally debatable.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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