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  1. #201
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    1/ Can you prove your claim? Are you a sociologist?
    Can you prove they're not gratuitous affirmations?
    The type of work I do involves being around people who predominantly homeschool as their method of education. In all the homeschoolers I've been around, I've not seen any that were 'dangerous' or worthy of being reported, or I probably would have reported them. There was one family, a large fairly religious one, who was questionable, and someone else turned them in. They were investigated, and kept under scrutiny a while, but still were legally allowed to homeschool.

    Conversely, I know many (no joke) publicly educated children whose lack of knowledge scares the hell out of me. They are barely literate, can't spell (not that spelling means a lot on its own, but combined with everything else does contribute to the sense of illiteracy), struggle with math, and obviously can't advance very quickly; and to have to stay after school even longer than normal to get extra help, or for parent teacher conferences. My friend, whose two children are both in this situation right now, said for the school to tutor them, the children have to be diagnosed with a disease (like ADHD or asperger's or whatever), so they can be put in a title program, so the teacher's can get extra money--all for just helping them a little more with their math! Combine that with peer hostility if you are overweight, non-trendy, and/or quiet and shy, and a child can get quite a complex about them. (No, I'm not a pyschologist , but I can intuit that the above scenario is not good day in and day out for children.



    2/ Subjectively, I have noticed the exact opposite pattern. Families who homeschool usually are the more toxic, the more likely to brainwash their children.
    What are your examples of brainwashing? Homophobia? Not desiring sex education?


    Or rather, let's say that statistically the risk is very high, while it is least likely in public schools (because public teachers are regularly controlled and supervised by education professionals).
    And once again, with public schools, children will have the choice. They could compare more easily the difference between what society and their family want them to learn, and will eventually wonder why. And hence, it will develop their critical reasoning, it will help them to acquire intellectual autonomy more quickly, and more efficiently.
    And it works even if you disagree with so-called public school propaganda.
    School here doesn't replace family. I'm not sure about France. Kids might be exposed to choice here, but until they are 18, they are subject to their parents' values and ideologies.

    And I think that critical reasoning is what most family who choose homeschooling fear the most. They are afraid to see their values criticized in return, they do not want to take the risk.

    Prove me I'm wrong!
    I don't homeschool out of fear, and I never have. I homeschool because I have always intuited it was the best choice, emotionally and intellectually, for my children. No doubt some fancy PREP school could educate them more soundly, but isn't there something to be said for a child's attachment to family? Do you think attachment to family is wrong? Or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    If you say so.

    But I seriously doubt it.

    I do not think the majority of parents have enough knowledge or training to teach every possible subject in college, and a fortiori in secondary schools.

    Even in my family, it would be difficult (even if it's an intellectual bourgeois family: PhD everywhere, and always with Magna cum laude...).
    Perfectionist at all? It sounds like quite the taskmaster standard you are promoting there. I think being an intellectual should be balanced with other things, like feeling like a valuable part of a family; being exposed to various activities, not just of the academic variety; and having enough 'down time' to explore various muses that might not otherwise crop up in a directive atmosphere. Perhaps a person would not score 2400 on their SAT that way, but they just might be a well-rounded and content individual nonetheless. What's more important?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    IMO part of that effect is what I mentioned earlier, that homeschoolers are a self-selecting group.
    Good poing. I'd say part, but not all. I've seen homeschooling families that were less involved than public schooler families. In the beginning, public schooled kids in those families do 'better' because they read sooner and do math better, are forced to write more, etc., as a general rule, from what I've witnessed. However, the tide starts to turn somewhere around 4th or 5th grade, because by that time the kids have been in school full-time for at least 4-6 years (if you count all day Kindergarten), and they start to show signs of burnout; not liking school, problems with peers, wanting to stay home from school, not being excited to return to school after Christmas break, etc. That's when even being a lackadaisacal homeschool family outshines a publicly educated one, because kids who go to school then begin going through the motions, learn to play the game, but don't really enjoy what they are learning about, at least on average. They might do a lot of extracurriculars and stuff, but there is not much depth of knowledge, as far as I've seen. Whereas the homeschool comparison, the kids will be 'catching up' in their math and reading and writing skills, and as long as they are at least exposed to quality references, and limited on unhealthy media, they will start surpassing their school age peers, because they went slower and did not get burned out, and have retained their love of learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Gratuitous affirmation.

    You can't be sure of that.

    In France, public schools system is usually far better than private schools.
    That sounds really great. I don't really know how our private schools are here, but the general feeling is that they are better than public. That's probably why not many feel the need to homeschool there; you just have a better model of community in general perhaps than we do.
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  2. #202
    Oberon
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    ...must...restrain...self...!

  3. #203
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    I am German and I support the ban on home schooling in Germany. The material taught in public schools is based on a broad consensus of the responsible administrative bodies, and additionally, curricula in Germany are the responsibility of individual states, i.e. are not determined / dictated by the federal government.

    Personally I believe that certain viewpoints held by some people (like religious fundamentalism) are backwards and in todays society are completely invalid. Any progressive society shold work to eliminate those viewpoints because they are detrimental to the overall development and well-being of the majority of individuals that compromise "society".

    That doesnt mean that public scholling is perfect, but overall it offers better control mechanisms as to how children develop and therefor offers the opportunity for early intervention if problems are detected. Though I am opposed to excessive intrusion into the private lifes of students / parents, one has to find a blance here between prevention of problems and having faith in people's ability to solve their own problems.

    It does appear to me though, that homeschooling is in part responsible for all the (religious and other) crazyness you see in the USA that just doesn't exist in other countries of the West. From outside it kind of looks like the US is always just one step away from descending back into the 13th century, which is kind of scary actually.

    I would question if people that have crazy religious views are even fit to raise children at all, and I view "devout" religion as something backwards that the state and public education system should work to overcome to create a more tolerant and peaceful society.

    If we allowed homeschooling we certainly would need some kind of test if parents are actually able to teach their children. I dont think anyone without college level education should be allowed to homeschool ever.

    So in summary, I am very sceptical of homeschooling as a valid means to prepare children for their later life and I do fear that homeschooling helps to preserve backwards and dangerous attitudes in society. I do recognize that potentially in a repressive state / environment it can actually be the opposite, but presently such an environment does not exist in any country of the west. I udnerstand that people like evangelical christians feel they are protecting their children from a repressive and dangerous / sinfull environment, but they are unfortunately wrong / delusional. By overcoming their delusional viewpoints, the overall quality of life in the areas where they dominate could likely be increased.
    If you are not a parent or educator you can't know the bolded and are ignorant. So essentially what you say is invalid.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    I am German and I support the ban on home schooling in Germany. The material taught in public schools is based on a broad consensus of the responsible administrative bodies, and additionally, curricula in Germany are the responsibility of individual states, i.e. are not determined / dictated by the federal government.

    Personally I believe that certain viewpoints held by some people (like religious fundamentalism) are backwards and in todays society are completely invalid. Any progressive society shold work to eliminate those viewpoints because they are detrimental to the overall development and well-being of the majority of individuals that compromise "society".

    That doesnt mean that public scholling is perfect, but overall it offers better control mechanisms as to how children develop and therefor offers the opportunity for early intervention if problems are detected. Though I am opposed to excessive intrusion into the private lifes of students / parents, one has to find a blance here between prevention of problems and having faith in people's ability to solve their own problems.

    It does appear to me though, that homeschooling is in part responsible for all the (religious and other) crazyness you see in the USA that just doesn't exist in other countries of the West. From outside it kind of looks like the US is always just one step away from descending back into the 13th century, which is kind of scary actually.

    I would question if people that have crazy religious views are even fit to raise children at all, and I view "devout" religion as something backwards that the state and public education system should work to overcome to create a more tolerant and peaceful society.

    If we allowed homeschooling we certainly would need some kind of test if parents are actually able to teach their children. I dont think anyone without college level education should be allowed to homeschool ever.

    So in summary, I am very sceptical of homeschooling as a valid means to prepare children for their later life and I do fear that homeschooling helps to preserve backwards and dangerous attitudes in society. I do recognize that potentially in a repressive state / environment it can actually be the opposite, but presently such an environment does not exist in any country of the west. I udnerstand that people like evangelical christians feel they are protecting their children from a repressive and dangerous / sinfull environment, but they are unfortunately wrong / delusional. By overcoming their delusional viewpoints, the overall quality of life in the areas where they dominate could likely be increased.
    As I said, Germany is still a Nazi State. Sad.

  5. #205
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    If you are not a parent or educator you can't know the bolded and are ignorant. So essentially what you say is invalid.
    I don't need to be a parent to observe general / society-wide trends / consequences of certain policy decisions. I am aware that in individual cases, homeschooling might be the better alternative, but if I had to decide on "homeschooling, yes or no" my vote would be No, since, to me, the negatives outwheigh the possible positives.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    I don't need to be a parent to observe general / society-wide trends / consequences of certain policy decisions. I am aware that in individual cases, homeschooling might be the better alternative, but if I had to decide on "homeschooling, yes or no" my vote would be No, since, to me, the negatives outwheigh the possible positives.
    "The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man’s life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, the nation—and that the state may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good."

    "A statist system—whether of a communist, fascist, Nazi, socialist or “welfare” type—is based on the . . . government’s unlimited power, which means: on the rule of brute force. The differences among statist systems are only a matter of time and degree; the principle is the same. Under statism, the government is not a policeman, but a legalized criminal that holds the power to use physical force in any manner and for any purpose it pleases against legally disarmed, defenseless victims."

    "The ideological root of statism (or collectivism) is the tribal premise of primordial savages who, unable to conceive of individual rights, believed that the tribe is a supreme, omnipotent ruler, that it owns the lives of its members and may sacrifice them whenever it pleases to whatever it deems to be its own “good.” Unable to conceive of any social principles, save the rule of brute force, they believed that the tribe’s wishes are limited only by its physical power and that other tribes are its natural prey, to be conquered, looted, enslaved, or annihilated. The history of all primitive peoples is a succession of tribal wars and intertribal slaughter. That this savage ideology now rules nations armed with nuclear weapons, should give pause to anyone concerned with mankind’s survival.

    Statism is a system of institutionalized violence and perpetual civil war. It leaves men no choice but to fight to seize political power—to rob or be robbed, to kill or be killed. When brute force is the only criterion of social conduct, and unresisting surrender to destruction is the only alternative, even the lowest of men, even an animal—even a cornered rat—will fight. There can be no peace within an enslaved nation."

    --Ayn Baby (an INTJ, and not a Nazi)--

  7. #207
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    I don't need to be a parent to observe general / society-wide trends / consequences of certain policy decisions. I am aware that in individual cases, homeschooling might be the better alternative, but if I had to decide on "homeschooling, yes or no" my vote would be No, since, to me, the negatives outwheigh the possible positives.
    Oh, so you've observed that homeschoolers do poorly in later life? Being 'skeptical of homeschoolers doing well in later life' is quite a reach, and obviously involves faulty logic, because that's not what I have observed. I'd encourage you to keep more of an open mind, or at least investigate a bit more on the homeschooling side, or you will continue to waste your time, and others', on incorrect and faulty assumptions.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Oh, so you've observed that homeschoolers do poorly in later life? Being 'skeptical of homeschoolers doing well in later life' is quite a reach, and obviously involves faulty logic, because that's not what I have observed. I'd encourage you to keep more of an open mind, or at least investigate a bit more on the homeschooling side, or you will continue to waste your time, and others', on incorrect and faulty assumptions.
    All the actual studies that I've seen show homeschoolers outperform gov't school survivors on every measured data point. You're dealing with crackheads, here, methinks...

  9. #209
    Oberon
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    Folks, don't mistakenly identify Razor's mode of thinking as being "Nazi." It's not.

    It is, however, representative of a certain strain of the German national character. It predates the Nazis and the Kaiser, and it's what made the Germans (particularly the Prussians) such very good soldiers. At a gut level they just intrinsically understood the requirements of a command structure, and how to sacrifice the individual on behalf of the commander, and by extension the state. It's as natural as breathing, and Razor's not to be blamed. He is the product of his culture, and of course those fine government schools.

    I could not have in my wildest dreams asked for a better illustration of what I do not want my children to become, however.

    Thank you, DR.

  10. #210
    Sniffles
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    As I said earlier Oberon, it dates back to Fitche's lectures.

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