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  1. #121
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    No, it's made only for those people. And the degree that you get the real world is different from one to the other, but not higher and lower. I had less direct experience as a home schooler, but I was also fed less propaganda. I have to make up for the lost experience, where as I find most public schoolers have to make up for the lost truth.
    I think you didn't understand my point.

    It's not a question of propaganda, the issue is rather how you identify propaganda for what it really is, how you learn facing it. And having the choice between multiple authority figures is fundamental for a balanced psychological development, and for the developement of critical reasoning. Paradoxally, public schools are vital should you want to understand the need to challenge authority sometimes, and why. When you first learn to challenge your teacher or the other pupils, you learn this lesson.

    With homeschooling, you don't have this choice, since you can only trust one source of authority: your parents. And even with the best parents in the world, this is a very dangerous situation. Homeschooling is most of the time a pretense for parents who want to keep a total control over their children, who are unable or afraid to delegate their authority.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #122
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    They passed a law in ohio (and I think in some other states) that bullying has to be reported to authorities just like reports of sexual abuse. Bullying in Schools —

    Kids who are overly active in school now get medicine.

    So maybe these wonderful experiences of triumphing above wouldn't be true anymore in public schools.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    They passed a law in ohio (and I think in some other states) that bullying has to be reported to authorities just like reports of sexual abuse. Bullying in Schools —

    Kids who are overly active in school now get medicine.

    So maybe these wonderful experiences of triumphing above wouldn't be true anymore in public schools.
    When people talk about bad experiences in school, the focus is on individual bullies but very little about group mobbing and verbal abuse. And almost none about teachers who support it. There were some teachers who supported it.

    The majority of my experience was group mobbing done verbally. And when one is that age and school is your whole world, all those axions about "sticks and stones" mean nothing. Standing up to the group just like throwing fuel on a fire and ignoring it just makes them work harder. It is like a no win situation.

    Well, by high school this had stopped but there's no going back to feel trust with people when you've seen their demon side so often.

  4. #124
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was bothered about their main objection (which was the religious issue), considering what was potentially being traded off. I've just seen far too much cloistering of kids rather than equipping them to deal with the world.

    However, I can far more respect a position like Oberon's, which discusses some very legitimate issues with public school and how home-schooling can remedy them. Home-schooling seems like a pursuit that either is done really well or really poorly... if you do it well, it's worth it, but if you do it lukewarmly or poorly, it's has potential for worse disaster than just leaving well enough alone.

    It does have the benefit of allowing children and parents to spend more time together, but then the issue of peer socialization has to be taken care of. Still, any issue can be "worked" to find some sort of solution.

    I'm not much for the "brainwashing" defense which tries to accuse every involved agency of indoctrination; that argument loses the nuance of what specifically is being taught by who and why, and how much flexibility is being permitted by the teacher. Just because agents are necessarily teaching a particular point of view does not put their approaches on the same footing or make them equivalent in motivation, fairness, balance, etc.
    Wow. This thread exploded. I have come to realize after knowing and being around numerous homeschooled families of various backgrounds, that overall, taking everything into consideration, even poor or lukewarm homeschooling is better than public schooling from 1-12th grade. that's just how bad the educational system can be in America. The reason homeschooling can still be better is that as long as kids learn how to read, as they all do (as far as I've known), and are provided books and educational play, which is done as well, and are not in an abusive house all day, they avoid that peer pressure day in and day out, which can be so devastating. Not only that, but at least their time is their own, and they can read what they want, play how they want, be with family, etc., without being stifled. I am talking about less-than-optimal homeschooling here; homeschooling where the parent is either absent or not always available, takes little interest in the child, etc. Abuse is abuse and that's not what I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Home schooling is (rightfully, in my opinon) unlawful. There's basically no such a thing, and no parent would think about homeschooling their children. I could see, however, that it may be a good idea if a family lives in a rather isolated place; perhaps in that case something like 50-percent-home and 50-percent-real-school would let children waste much less time with travelling to and back from school.



    Why? Teachers had to pass through many years of schooling before being allowed to practice their profession. How could I think I'm better than them, a priori? Sure, parents will often be better than AWFUL teachers, but there's a lot of good teachers too.
    Well, I don't think education in Europe can be compared to education in America. Europeans still largely do not homeschool. Many countries there have strong stipulations, or just make it downright illegal, like Germany. We do things differently here in America, for better or worse.


    Which brings me to the article. My feeling is that religion should not be tied to the right to homeschool. The right to homeschool should fall under whatever laws ensure parents reign supreme over their children, which Germany doesn't believe. I resent that someone can claim the right to homeschool as some religious right. That just doesn't jive with me. Next thing you know the religious-minded who would do that would claim we have a right to use corporal punishment, or a right to avoid appropriate medical treatment, or a right to give our kids guns. Religion should not necessarily be tied to education, legally anyway. So I don't think that family should have chosen to come here. What? Everyone in Germany that then wants to homeschool and can't, is going to flee to America? Get real.

    Change your own freakin' laws if you have a problem with them, Germans!

    Also, I get so tired of being stereotyped as religious because I homeschool. Lots of people (maybe not the majority for sure) homeschool because they understand it is the best method to foster their child's emotional, as well as, intellectual development. It ain't perfect, but it's a LOT better than public school.

    I think public school kids do well when their family is cohesive and takes an interest in them. I think this makes a huge difference between the kids that get lost through the cracks of public education. But they still don't learn as efficiently or as thoroughly as the homeschooled kids I've seen and known. One hour of quality homeschooling equals about 4 hours of public education, imo. So, these kids are wasting 3 times the amount of time they need to learn something not even as well! What would you have done with your time had you been able to do something else with it? If you could have taken 3/4 of the time you spent in school and used it in your own way?

    I would have written more. Read more things I wanted to read. Learned to sew better, cook better, etc. I would have been closer to my mom. My husband might have become a professional musician. Might have developed some computer technology. Who knows.

    Why do we think our kids will thrive in an institutional setting with institutional food, while spending more time with burned out adults and their struggling peer group than with their own families? Why? It makes no sense. The only thing that makes sense about it, is that it makes it easier on both parents to work and feel comfortable in that.
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  5. #125
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Public schools will show you the REAL world, and how to face it. This is a vital experience. Vital experience don't have to always be pleasant, but they're vital nonetheless.

    Homeschooling is made:

    (1) For people who have no other choice, no other options

    (2) For people who are afraid of the real world. And I should rather mean, for PARENTS who are afraid of the real world, because their children will never know what they are missing.
    Being too protective with your children is most of time irresponsible, cowardly, and even sometimes conceals perverse motives, like being able to stay their sole and only authority figure, and hence, dominate them for life.
    Say what now?
    I went to public school from kinder to 10th grade and was home schooled my 11th and 12th grade year. It sure wasn't because my parents wanted to brain wash me or control me, it was because they wanted to give us more opportunities and to just try it for two years.

    You don't miss anything being home schooled. If you find a good home school group or community, most of them will have field trips, their own sports teams and will have co-op so all the students can socialize together. The only difference is that you learn at home at your own pace.

    I'm glad I had the opportunity to be home schooled because it wasn't until then that I was able to figure out what I want out of life and it wasn't until then that I started to like myself. I know those are all personal issues, but I know with the path I was heading in public school, I would've never discovered myself. Plus I learned a lot more when I was home schooled because that particular school I went to was horrible academically and the socializing was horrible.

    Really, home schooling is pretty nice if people give it a chance. I promise not everyone who's home schooled looks and acts like a religious zealot who dresses as if they came out of a Laura Ingles Wilder book.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
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  6. #126
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    What "they make" you do varies considerably from state to state. Here in North Carolina, which is one of the least-regulated states for homeschooling, homeschoolers are required to register their "schools" with the state government, and homeschool children are required to take the California Achievement Test at least once every two years, and that's about it.

    We do the CAT test every year, just as a sanity check on how the kids are doing.

    Theoretically homeschoolers are subject to state audit at the state's discretion, but we've never had this happen.
    Eek, in Texas they mind their own business. Home schooling is considered private schooling so they can't ask us questions and test us. They literally have to back off.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  7. #127
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Public schooling is flawed in alot of ways. Home schooling can be very good if done right, as it can be custom tailored to the individual student, and give them everything they need to achieve.

    It can also fail hardcore, far more than public schooling can ever come near.

    Homeschooling is such a vague premise... it has no real boundaries on the quality of education, nor of social interaction at all. It can be dozens of times better than public schooling, or pitifully inadequate in every conceivable way. There's really such a broad spectrum that it becomes an issue because of such...

    Some countries simply have given up trying to forcibly micromanage every single household, as they don't have the resources to do such. Rather than attempting to keep track of all the homeschooled kids and try to ensure they are being actually taught (I was "homeschooled" for about 2 years... and by "homeschooled" I mean "here's some textbooks, have fun" and left to my own devices, which's NOT how that's supposed to work -_-; ), and specifically taught key things they need to know.

    The vast majority of homeschoolers aren't doing it so much for their kids' education, but because they want to omit certain things out of the curriculum which're deemed necessary for everyone, or because they want to avoid social issues such as bullying.

    The problem, especially in places like germany, is that some people will simply abuse the system. Germany's laws are exceedingly strict on certain areas after the whole nazi thing... and I'd almost guarantee yeu that one of their biggest fears of homeschooled kids is that they would be somehow taught that the holocaust was faked, which's a seriously nasty offense over there. Without direct control of whot the kids are taught, such as ensuring basic sex-ed, history, and so on, they worry that homeschooled kids will be 'protected' from such courses.

    The only way to be truly sure that doesn't happen, is to not let anyone do so. If only the public schools are allowed to teach, they have the strict rules and guidelines of whot they HAVE to teach, and how they have to teach it, and it's many times easier to enforce such.

    While some people panic that their rights are being infringed upon, it's not their rights that are being looked at; it's that they are viewed as infringing upon their children's rights to a "proper" education, and childrens' rights supersede adults'.

    In any case, homeschooling CAN be good OR bad. The issue is just whether the country or whotever feels it is within their capacity to oversee such reliably, and whether or not they've had enough notable cases of abuse.





    EDIT: Oh one thing I should mention, before people attack me for my comments.

    I actually probably would not solely homeschool my children on my own; however, I would suppliment any school learning they recieved with at home classes on top of such. I learned to read before I even got to kindergarden, I would expect no less of my own children, and I would insist upon making sure they learned practical and useful information along the way. I like to teach, and I like to show off interesting neat stuff. On the other hand, I also know I can't provide accurate full proper teaching of ALL courses. I know alot of stuff about alot of topics, but I don't thoroughly know enough about each topic to give truly proper education. There's more to teaching than just mindlessly reading a book aloud; yeu need to actually know how it works yeurself inside out, so that when yeu're asked a question, yeu can actually answer it. If they hit something the book doesn't cover, yeu have to know enough to fill that gap. Homeschooling provides more intimate and one on one teaching... but it sorely lacks in the ability to have teachers with specializations, and, unless yeu're quite wealthy, lacks such things as labs for certain courses in the sciences and computer sciences.

    Homeschooling isn't inherently bad, and I would homeschool my kids to some degree, but it wouldn't be 100% solely homeschooled either.

  8. #128
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    To Stepho: It's considered private schooling here too, but you still have to adhere to some minor standards and prove things like attendance and subjects taught if asked. You also have to legally register as a homeschooler.

    Another great thing about homeschooling now, is that kids can start junior college at 16 and get a real jump-start on college. They call it 'running start' and it's half price for up to 10 hours. My INTJ teenager loves it. He's taking chemistry and math right now. Last semester he was one of two students whose paper was chosen for publication in the junior college newspaper. And that's having had NO FORMAL Writing curriculum to speak of, outside of a few good books, and some guidance in outline format and note taking. I know other homeschoolers who are exactly the same way; excellent writers.
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  9. #129
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    With homeschooling, you don't have this choice, since you can only trust one source of authority: your parents. And even with the best parents in the world, this is a very dangerous situation. Homeschooling is most of the time a pretense for parents who want to keep a total control over their children, who are unable or afraid to delegate their authority.
    I didn't trust my parents for very long. What do you make of that?

    Besides, they were so hands off my main authority was a wide array of textbook authors.
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  10. #130
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I think you didn't understand my point.

    It's not a question of propaganda, the issue is rather how you identify propaganda for what it really is, how you learn facing it. And having the choice between multiple authority figures is fundamental for a balanced psychological development, and for the developement of critical reasoning. Paradoxally, public schools are vital should you want to understand the need to challenge authority sometimes, and why. When you first learn to challenge your teacher or the other pupils, you learn this lesson.

    With homeschooling, you don't have this choice, since you can only trust one source of authority: your parents. And even with the best parents in the world, this is a very dangerous situation. Homeschooling is most of the time a pretense for parents who want to keep a total control over their children, who are unable or afraid to delegate their authority.
    This is so illustrative of the innate difference between the freedoms in the US and the socialization of Europe. I love the European model until I hear this kind of crapola. Yeah, some strangers in government know my kids and what they need better than their own loving family. I will never really understand that.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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