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  1. #71
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Tend to agree with ajblaise at least to the at extent where he appears to infer that it is too early to make a unyielding value judgment (positive or negative) on the phenomenon/movement. There are many from different groups who main common theme is anti Obama and disassociation with Bush.

    Corporate or other groups including neoCons are attempting to infiltrate the movement (i.e. Palin). However individuals such as Keith Olbermann with sensationalist journalism address them in the pejorative and indirectly via polarization shape the movement in the negative (and thereby indirectly creates negative associations (if not essentially invitations with the movement as well as assists the neoCons in there grasp on the GOP).

    Right now I try and keep cautiously optimistic as to the change which predominately will impact the GOP.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  2. #72
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Just ask the average teabagger about waterboarding or CIA torture, or if we should strike Iran. Surveys within the group show, that on foreign policy, most are hawks.
    You would be surprised how many Tea Partiers (and that is what they are called) are actually ambivalent about interventionist foreign policy. They tend to be very concerned about national defense and aren't squeamish about war, but they are no neocons. Besides, being in favor of waterboarding or even torture doesn't make one a hawk by definition. You should know that.


    The movement has a lot of libertarian rhetoric, but is at least 2/3 conservative. I'd like to see data that shows otherwise.
    I'd like to see any actual data from you, not conjecture.


    I'm talking about neocons vs. teabaggers. Not liberals.

    The neocon movement didn't have signs, because they weren't a populist "every man" movement. It was corporate run, and run by neocon think tanks like Project for the New American Century.

    The Bush supporters with the signs didn't know what neoconservatism was. It was more of an elite movement.
    That I would agree with. A very strange group, the true neocons. In large part, Jewish and Catholic intellectuals who evolved out of anticommunist Democrats in the '50s and '60s.



    FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity, two of the main groups who set up these events, are entirely corporate. They were started by Kock Industries, Inc. and David Koch. And dicks like Dick Armey.

    They get caught astroturfing all the time. They've made the term famous, again.
    The Koch brothers have been libertarian activists for decades and they have spent tens of millions of their own dollars getting the message out. Koch Industries is privately-held, not some multinational corporation or industry slush fund group financing fake protesters. Astroturfing does not apply to their endeavors at all. Is Reason magazine a corporate broadsheet? Is the Cato Institute a dummy think tank? If you answer yes, you are lying to yourself.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    Mercury, Blaise, perhaps you're both correct about the conservative/libertarian make-up of the Tea Party movement.

    According to the PEW link that Spamtar provided, libertarians are more concentrated in the West than they are throughout the rest of this country. Since you, Pure Mercury, hail from Hollywood, you are statistically more likely to run into libertarian Tea Partiers than you, AJBlaise, who live in New York.
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  4. #74
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    Mercury, Blaise, perhaps you're both correct about the conservative/libertarian make-up of the Tea Party movement.

    According to the PEW link that Spamtar provided, libertarians are more concentrated in the West than they are throughout the rest of this country. Since you, Pure Mercury, hail from Hollywood, you are statistically more likely to run into libertarian Tea Partiers than you, AJBlaise, who live in New York.
    I actually know more Tea Party activists and Ron Paul campaign people from the Philadelphia area where I grew up and lived the first 26 years of my life. Most people I know in Hollywood are politically interested (but not particularly active) liberals.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #75
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Seem relevant to the direction of this thread:

    Tea Party Lights Fuse for Rebellion on Right
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #76
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    ^What concerns me on articles like these is that it infers a disjointed movement by its most wacky fringe. This is dangerous because by framing the core with emphasis on its fringe makes its fringe stronger. Thus by essentially playing the race card again and highlighting those who jump on the band wagon like Beck and Palin credence it reframes the movement and gives those who would otherwise have little voice the spotlight.

    I would say adding the gun nuts (suporters of the 2nd amendment and the movement for its incorporation to the states via the 14th amendment) to this crowd a fair assessment but the inference that Beck, Palin and the racists are in the drivers seat unfortunately opens up the likelihood that said individuals will have a better opportunity at accessing higher ranks of leadership within this well meaning but disjointed movement.
    The fact that Ron Paul (who the media unfairly ignored if not blacklisted during the Republican Primaries) was carving this breach long before it became popular fortunately give its roots integrity as opposed to the other big name Johnny come latelys.

    At least the article emphasis the fact that greater attention by these participants is focused on the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence (and hopefully other key sources of a free society such as the Federalist Papers, the Magna Carta and the writing of Lord Edward Coke)
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  7. #77
    Senior Member Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    ^What concerns me on articles like these is that it infers a disjointed movement by its most wacky fringe. This is dangerous because by framing the core with emphasis on its fringe makes its fringe stronger. Thus by essentially playing the race card again and highlighting those who jump on the band wagon like Beck and Palin credence it reframes the movement and gives those who would otherwise have little voice the spotlight.

    I would say adding the gun nuts (suporters of the 2nd amendment and the movement for its incorporation to the states via the 14th amendment) to this crowd a fair assessment but the inference that Beck, Palin and the racists are in the drivers seat unfortunately opens up the likelihood that said individuals will have a better opportunity at accessing higher ranks of leadership within this well meaning but disjointed movement.
    The fact that Ron Paul (who the media unfairly ignored if not blacklisted during the Republican Primaries) was carving this breach long before it became popular fortunately give its roots integrity as opposed to the other big name Johnny come latelys.

    At least the article emphasis the fact that greater attention by these participants is focused on the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence (and hopefully other key sources of a free society such as the Federalist Papers, the Magna Carta and the writing of Lord Edward Coke)
    The first modern "Tea Party" was actually started in support of Ron Paul. It was a moneybomb (mass single day donation) for the campaign set on the anniversary of the original Boston Tea Party, and subsequently went off that theme.

    While the modern Tea Party Coalition was not created by the Ron Paul movement in any direct (or indirect for that matter) ways, it was certainly influenced by Ron Paul to some degree, which would explain the Libertarian bent.

    Most importantly however, the modern "Tea Parties" were an attempt to return to original principles by a miffed off group of people. These people, mostly conservative, were angry at both Obama's massive expansions of government and banker bailouts, as well as the lax GOP and the neocons controlling it. Ron Paul has been staunchly against all of this for 30 years, so he was naturally positioned for the Tea Parties to listen to what he has to say and be influenced by him.

    Since they started, as a reactionary movement, the GOP has been doing their best to reign in the renegades, and they are having effect slowly but surely. Whether the GOP, who are still dominated by the same neocons that disenfranchised the Tea Party to begin with, will hold true to their base is yet to be seen. In the meantime, to peg the such an amorphous and politically diverse group (fringe or otherwise) with a solid political stance would be futile, as they are ever-changing.

  8. #78
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The first modern "Tea Party" was actually started in support of Ron Paul. It was a moneybomb (mass single day donation) for the campaign set on the anniversary of the original Boston Tea Party, and subsequently went off that theme.

    While the modern Tea Party Coalition was not created by the Ron Paul movement in any direct (or indirect for that matter) ways, it was certainly influenced by Ron Paul to some degree, which would explain the Libertarian bent.

    Most importantly however, the modern "Tea Parties" were an attempt to return to original principles by a miffed off group of people. These people, mostly conservative, were angry at both Obama's massive expansions of government and banker bailouts, as well as the lax GOP and the neocons controlling it. Ron Paul has been staunchly against all of this for 30 years, so he was naturally positioned for the Tea Parties to listen to what he has to say and be influenced by him.

    Since they started, as a reactionary movement, the GOP has been doing their best to reign in the renegades, and they are having effect slowly but surely. Whether the GOP, who are still dominated by the same neocons that disenfranchised the Tea Party to begin with, will hold true to their base is yet to be seen. In the meantime, to peg the such an amorphous and politically diverse group (fringe or otherwise) with a solid political stance would be futile, as they are ever-changing.
    I agree. Thanks for the history. I wish them luck in staying truer to their roots and avoid the corruption by the likes of Beck/Palin or the neocons. If the GOP reigns them hopefully they (the GOP) with adjust their hardcore neocon stance to more libertarian/anti intervention policies.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  9. #79
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I dont see how zero tax agitation demonstrates any awareness of how modern economies work, end off, its how Paul has to suggest a reversion to pre-modern economy is a good idea but his supporters cant possibly believe properly comprehend what they're asking for.

    There's a shit storm in the US' future because what started out as an ideology to prime the masses and let the 1% get their way has been internalised as gospel truth. Now I dont know how any country which has started believing its own propaganda escapes the consequences, it doesnt matter what the ideology is particularly the results are the same unemployment, scarcity and at the worst famine, civil war, war with neighbours.

  10. #80
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont see how zero tax agitation demonstrates any awareness of how modern economies work, end off, its how Paul has to suggest a reversion to pre-modern economy is a good idea but his supporters cant possibly believe properly comprehend what they're asking for.

    There's a shit storm in the US' future because what started out as an ideology to prime the masses and let the 1% get their way has been internalised as gospel truth. Now I dont know how any country which has started believing its own propaganda escapes the consequences, it doesnt matter what the ideology is particularly the results are the same unemployment, scarcity and at the worst famine, civil war, war with neighbours.
    Its less about the ideal (0% taxation) and more about a return away from the antithesis of the ideal (substantial or total slavery/serfdom). The states of USA was similar to Europe sovereigns in many ways. The states essentially saw themselves as separate countries and they entered into a limited agreement to address foreign invasion and commerce. The agreement put into place strong limitations so that the central authority would respect the individual rights and those of the states.

    More and more the central authority have been coming up with contrived reasons to act in ways it never was intended to act. For example most federal domestic acts are done under the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution. The agreement called for a reasonable number of representative per individual for this limited representation. This was a clause intended merely to regulate commerce and is being treated more and more as general authority to regulate health, welfare and safety. The agreement has been violated.

    In other words it is as if the EU took away all the national sovereignty of the European Nations, dropped a huge load of debt and taxes on those nations and to top it off started to invade other countries with the sovereigns having to flip the bill. Prior to Nixon (but after the civil war) the GOP tended be the party of restraint as far as expansive foreign policy/foreign wars as well as domestic policy. After the neoCons took over the GOP there has been little restraint and the deficit just keep on getting bigger and bigger and the value behind the dollar becomes lesser and lesser.

    This is essentially taxation without representation. And we remember the last time the colonies got fed up with this tax related act/omission.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

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