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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    @ Spamtar: very interesting research. Thanks for that PEW link.

    @ Lark: Education was being measured in self-reported college degrees, college enrollment, and high school diplomas. Nothing about "indoctrination."

    Also, I don't see human rights as a product of Western culture, but rather as a product of republican democracy (a system, which like science, is a mechanism open to all, regardless of a culture's geographic origin). Nor do I see the need for any country, whether European or American, to protect its own human rights through military imperialism.

    If you want to make the case that America has a moral calling to "spread democracy" that's one thing, but saying that we make ourselves safer by that interventionism is completely different. Since 9/11 we've weakened our global power, not increased it.
    Yeah, if you're judging whether a country is educated or not by conformity to ideological expectations, whether the are marxist or libertarian, you're talking about indoctrination not education.

    I'm not sure what you're on about republican democracy etc. that all sounds like empty words and nebulous distinctions to me, there are cultural pre-requisits to what you describe as republican democracy, its why following revolutions elsewhere the new regimes have been conspicously similar to he old, ie red tsars, red oriental despotism etc.

    Call it imperialism if you like, I dont care, the reality is that you're likely in a position to do so because you're a beneficiary of the same imperialism you criticise. Orwell was an opponent of empire but he admonished those who benefited the most from colonialism and empire for their berating of the soldiers who kept them safe in their beds at night. There's a truth in that. Distasteful maybe but its a truth none the less.

    I'd be interested to see how you reached your conclusions because you know, "imperialist" war never solved anything besides slavery, nazism, fascism and communism.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    Oh, and Spamtar, do you have any evidence that libertarians are overall more educated than conservatives (i.e. gradute from college at a higher rate or with a higher gpa)?
    Libertarians have more education on average than conservatives OR liberals (highest percentage of postgraduate degrees). Social liberalism correlates with higher IQ, as well. It does not nearly correlate nearly as strongly as some liberals would have you believe, though. According to recent stats, the median self-identified social liberal has a 57% likelihood of higher IQ than the median social conservative. Libertarians tend to have more economic education (formally or informally) than liberals or conservatives, as well.


    I was under the impression that there are currently several different types of libertarians, all quite different from each other:

    1. Blatent nonconformists, eccentrics, and potheads (normally found within the Libertarian Party itself)
    2. Older businessmen who don't really care much for moral crusades (usually found within the Republican Party)
    3. Younger conservatives who find themelves less moralistic than their elders (usually found within either of the above parties)
    And 4. Constitutionalists (usually found within the Constitution Party)

    Any thoughts on this?
    I don't think this is a particularly cogent breakdown of libertarians at all. Constitution Party members? They are much more socially conservative than most mainstream libertarians. Older businessmen? Small businessmen and independent consultants, maybe. IF ONLY there was a significant bloc of major businessmen who were libertarians. They are extremely unreliable in their support for free trade, deregulation, cutting subsidies, etc.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Teabaggers are more WF Buckley in rhetoric, than the neocons, but not much different. Still hawkish on foreign policy, generally. But a little more liberal on social policy.

    But the neocons were generally smarter and more educated than the average teabagger, who is barely literate. It's more of a populist blue-collar thing, but funded by corps.

    Your opinion on the matter is completely irrelevant. You have proved convincingly your ignorance on the subject.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Your opinion on the matter is completely irrelevant. You have proved convincingly your ignorance on the subject.
    You probably don't even disagree with anything I said in that post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    You probably don't even disagree with anything I said in that post.
    OK, fine. I will destroy your post sentence by sentence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    OK, fine. I will destroy your post sentence by sentence.
    Pshh you ain't hardcore like that.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Teabaggers are more WF Buckley in rhetoric, than the neocons, but not much different. Still hawkish on foreign policy, generally. But a little more liberal on social policy.
    The average Tea Partier is more selective in foreign policy intervention and less accepting of the welfare/warfare state than Buckley. If you read anything of his in the late-1950s, you'd see he is not exactly the late lamented libido of their movement.


    But the neocons were generally smarter and more educated than the average teabagger, who is barely literate.
    You wish. You know this isn't true, but you claim it anyway. Do you want me to sink to your level by finding the dumbest pro-Obama signs I can find and paint all of his fans with the same brush? Every single post of yours regarding Tea Partiers is pathetic, and they betray a serious and deep-seated fear that they are a major movement with a good amount of popular support. As usual, any evidence that contradicts your worldview is, by definition, false.


    It's more of a populist blue-collar thing, but funded by corps.
    An Astroturfing charge? LOL! Again, you wish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Pshh you ain't hardcore like that.
    You're right: the first part was three sentences.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Inflation is existant and is not small in the US but is just reported inacurately as not being large. It is similar games/cons made secondary mortgage junk loans repackaged as AAA. In other words, the numbers and models are a twisted aberration to the truth.

    Those that report the numbers among other things play with yesterdays weights to reframe reality to keep governments leaders happy and the little people placated. Just going to the supermarket, the movies or the gas pump make this obvious despite the shell games reported results in the media that everything is wonderful. Its similar to Big Brother saying 2 and 2 do not equal 4.

    This is a good article illustrating the point. The Big Picture
    are all libertarians conspiracy theorists? maybe they are all INXJs by definition

    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Basically illustrating serious disconect between the Consumer Price Index and reality.

    Here are a few examples taken from a 2007 survey simply for illustrative purposes:

    • Since 2001, health premiums have risen 78%; Wages have gained 19% over the same period. CPI inflation measure? 17%.

    • Housing is the single-largest expense for most Americans -- as much as a third of total cash outlays. The Labor Department's Bureau of Labor Statistics only tracks "owner's equivalent rent" (OER). Housing costs/Owners’ Equivalent Rent is 23.158% of CPI.

    • During the housing boom, OFHEO had housing prices increasing 13% per year; Non-government foundations had real estate taxes increasing about 6%; Over the same period, BLS measured ‘housing cost increases’ at 4% -- about half of its actual price increases.

    • Median real-estate taxes on owner-occupied housing went from $1,614 in 2005 to $1,742 in 2006, an increase of 7.93%. (That's more than double CPI inflation rate...and ‘Owners’ Equivalent Rent’ doesn’t account for real estate taxes.
    This is pretty misleading though. Inflation is a problem if its affecting peoples day to day decisions purchasing decisions (ie high ANNUAL/Quarterly inflation). If you compound the inflation of large enough time horizons, yes you can paint pictures of "devastating inflation" :eyeroll:. However, thats only true if the people living in those time horizons are living/earning in a certain way. Absolute 0% annual inflation is only a goal if you live with a hoarder's mentality and desire to stash all your money under the mattress. In reality, inflation is only a problem if it erodes peoples ability to be the "Red Queen" (you have to run, just to stay in place!).

    I largely believe that it is a myth that people's buying power has diminished over the past multiple decades:

    4. Inflation and Buying power can be misleading --> people's demand for more creates a mirage of less buying power
    There is a lot of calamity about how much less able the middle class and poor are able to live comfortably today vs 30 or so years ago. People often cite statistics about the cost of housing, college, food, and energy.

    What if things only appeared to be more expensive now? If I bought a car for 5000 real dollars in 1975, and payed 8000 real dollars today for a new car (numbers made up), am I really losing the value of my money? A new Car today likely has features that a new car in 1975 simply didnt: better gas mileage, better safety, more space, better performance etc. Thus, there is an illusion, that transportation has become more expensive, when in reality only our tastes have become more expensive.

    The same applies to housing, food, energy and college.

    Colleges didnt always provide nearly as much "extra stuff":
    Tuition rates are going up all over the place, but its not the education itself that’s pushing prices up, it’s the campus extras that are doing the deed. Colleges claim they have to offer attractive amenities to stay competitive, but some colleges are taking extra amenities – and their tuition costs – to the next level. The question is, do students really care about these amenities or would they rather just have lower tuition?

    “Then there is the burgeoning demand for luxury campus amenities, like the spanking new Academic Village at [Colorado State University], or the food courts, climbing walls, and exercise facilities our students seem to require. Some campuses even offer discounted massages and free Napster accounts. These amenities are, of course, ancillary to the quality of the education our universities provide. Yet provide them we must, or the students will not come. It’s a competitive market, you see.”
    Are Frivolous Amenities Worth The Extra Tuition | myUsearch blog

    Houses, apartments and condos didnt always have as much square footage.
    Quote Originally Posted by NPR
    The average American house size has more than doubled since the 1950s; it now stands at 2,349 square feet. Whether it's a McMansion in a wealthy neighborhood, or a bigger, cheaper house in the exurbs, the move toward ever large homes has been accelerating for years.
    Behind the Ever-Expanding American Dream House : NPR

    The average American food bill has become a bigger burden. However, the average american eats out a lot more now. Some even erroneously think that its cheaper to eat out! This simply indicates that once again, American's tastes have gotten more expensive. If you buy meat, fruit, vegetables, eggs, bread and lunch meat, and know how to cook, it will generally be cheaper (unless you live in an overpriced metro like NYC) than eating out every meal.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSN
    In the next decade, more than half the average household food budget will be spent on meals bought outside the home, compared with 25% in 1955, the association reports.
    Is eating out cheaper than cooking?

    The average American actually drives about twice as many miles than they did in 1977: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/?ChartID=147
    Its little wonder that Americans claim that energy costs and gas bills are strangling them!

    The over arching point is that middle class Americans actually have a lot more buying power than every before. When people make comparisons to the "golden years" of the American middle class, they have to be fair about it. If the middle class today lived in the houses of the 70s, drove the miles of the 70s, went to the colleges of the 70s, cooked like the 70s and refrained from such extraneous "2000s entertainment" expenses, then the fact is that Americans would actually have plenty of buying power compared with the golden years. Peoples tastes have gotten more expensive. they demand more for each unit of product, yet the price of actual needed utility hasn't changed that much. This then creates the illusion that the middle class has lost buying power, because the middle class is overpaying for what utility they actually need.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    Okay, if in essence they already work for the government, why shouldn't the Fed be audited so the public can see what it really does? And if the government shouldn't be trusted to do the audit (which Paul wants) or nationalize it (which Paul doesn't want), why have the Fed in the first place?
    No disrespect, but I have explained numerous times why having a Fed is necessary. Monetary autonomy and active economic management is possible because we have a Fed. If we had just pegged to gold, we would no doubt have nose dived into a deflationary spiral. I know I've already talked about the DETAILS of the WHY numerous times. Secondly, the public shouldnt know what the Fed is doing, because I dont want the Fed to be in the spotlight! I'd rather have PhD economists running our economy than have congress press for election economics and tamper with the Fed. The fed is supposed to pretty much fly under the radar.

    And if the Fed is a black box...so what? The US inflation is not a problem. Let the black box work its magic!

    um, inflation may be small and under control, but it's not nonexistent.
    See this post ^^^^

  10. #70
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The average Tea Partier is more selective in foreign policy intervention and less accepting of the welfare/warfare state than Buckley. If you read anything of his in the late-1950s, you'd see he is not exactly the late lamented libido of their movement.
    Just ask the average teabagger about waterboarding or CIA torture, or if we should strike Iran. Surveys within the group show, that on foreign policy, most are hawks.

    The movement has a lot of libertarian rhetoric, but is at least 2/3 conservative. I'd like to see data that shows otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You wish. You know this isn't true, but you claim it anyway. Do you want me to sink to your level by finding the dumbest pro-Obama signs I can find and paint all of his fans with the same brush? Every single post of yours regarding Tea Partiers is pathetic, and they betray a serious and deep-seated fear that they are a major movement with a good amount of popular support. As usual, any evidence that contradicts your worldview is, by definition, false.
    I'm talking about neocons vs. teabaggers. Not liberals.

    The neocon movement didn't have signs, because they weren't a populist "every man" movement. It was corporate run, and run by neocon think tanks like Project for the New American Century.

    The Bush supporters with the signs didn't know what neoconservatism was. It was more of an elite movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    An Astroturfing charge? LOL! Again, you wish.
    FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity, two of the main groups who set up these events, are entirely corporate. They were started by Kock Industries, Inc. and David Koch. And dicks like Dick Armey.

    They get caught astroturfing all the time. They've made the term famous, again.

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