User Tag List

First 456

Results 51 to 59 of 59

  1. #51
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I notice that Americans commonly mistake "managerialism" with socialism.
    That's a good point in some ways, although I tend to think that the neo-cons typify the managerial revolution, Burnham himself I tend to think of as the archetypical and first neo-con, a trotskyist turned real political nationalist but without jettisoning most of the trotskyist tactics and methodology? He could have been the first.

    Although that's the criticism of socialism as being burgeoning big government, not all socialists consider the state a means for introducing or advancing the aims of socialism, just as not all capitalists believe in a free market. I tend to think even those arguments have a degree of sophistication or pseudo-sophistication.

    Instead, I tend to see Americans greatest prejudices against socialism to tend from considering it a vice of idealistic youths or the last refuge of malingers and rioters who're total strangers to personal or familial responsibility. Race and other factors have been significant in historically closing of the US from socialism or populism, plus nationalism/patriotism and the elites, both government and private, getting just so serious and organised and consolidating their ideology around about just after Kennedy's assasination and before Carter had to prostrate himself as a "born again Christian" with the rise of evangelism.

  2. #52
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Although that's the criticism of socialism as being burgeoning big government, not all socialists consider the state a means for introducing or advancing the aims of socialism, just as not all capitalists believe in a free market. I tend to think even those arguments have a degree of sophistication or pseudo-sophistication.
    That certainly is a good point. You certainly cannot claim Libetarian Socialists aka Anarchists as proponents of big government.

    Instead, I tend to see Americans greatest prejudices against socialism to tend from considering it a vice of idealistic youths or the last refuge of malingers and rioters who're total strangers to personal or familial responsibility. Race and other factors have been significant in historically closing of the US from socialism or populism, plus nationalism/patriotism and the elites, both government and private, getting just so serious and organised and consolidating their ideology around about just after Kennedy's assasination and before Carter had to prostrate himself as a "born again Christian" with the rise of evangelism.
    I think that maybe a slightly naive view of Americans. For one thing, we do have a strong tradition of populism which could be said to date back to Jeffersonian themes, and it certainly blossomed during th late 19th and early 20th centuries.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Interesting you label William Cobbett a "conservative" Lark.

    I don't know if "feudal socialism" can even truely exist within the American context since feudalism never really existed here. Closest that ever existed was in the South.
    Cobbett's treated as such by some of the better political theorists and anthologists like Andrew Vincent but I know what you mean in a certain sense, perhaps traditionalist?

    Marx was talking about the European scene, he probably rightly talked about socialism being an attempt to realise the norms and values of an earlier age in changed modern conditions, despite the optimism in his journalism and quotes people pull out on a closer reading you'll see he thought it was destined to fail unless it changed and he was right.

    Him and Engels thought all sorts of mad stuff about the US simply because they imagined it was a society unlikely to revert to habit like those in Europe.

  4. #54
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    The funny thing about the class structure in the US is that, while there are no titles of nobility, many of the forms and functions of fuedalism are nevertheless present. There is the leadership class (leaders in government, industry, and culture) who make all the policy decisions and control capital. There is a functional middle class that corresponds to the merchants, artisans, and tradesmen, and there is a gruntwork class of proles who correspond to the serfs... the laborers and factory line workers.

    The major differences in the US are 1) there is class mobility for those with the talent, fortitude, and luck to push themselves up into the next stratum, and 2) everyone in the US, regardless of his or her social class, is theoretically equal under the law.

    I say "theoretically" because I have seen enough exceptions to rule 2 to make me question its validity, but nevertheless I have to conclude that the ruling class in the US still is more answerable to the law than was the ruling class in medieval Europe, say for example.

    I don't know that any nation has ever fully evaded the forms of feudalism completely for any significant length of time, though I am admittedly woefully ignorant on this topic.

  5. #55
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Cobbett's treated as such by some of the better political theorists and anthologists like Andrew Vincent but I know what you mean in a certain sense, perhaps traditionalist?
    He fits into the Radical populist tradition of 19th century England. In fact he's probably the archetypical figure of that tradition.


    Him and Engels thought all sorts of mad stuff about the US simply because they imagined it was a society unlikely to revert to habit like those in Europe.
    Yes I'm aware of that. Just a few days ago I was reading the recent biography of Engels, and it noted much about his views concerning for example the American Civil War. Marx and Engels were sympathetic to the Union, as were other German socialists of the time(some of whom even volunteered for military service).

  6. #56
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That certainly is a good point. You certainly cannot claim Libetarian Socialists aka Anarchists as proponents of big government.
    Hmm, I dont like either of those categories, it could just be prejudice again though. They just make me think of punk kids and intellectuals.

    In the UK thinkers like Bertrand Russell and GDH Cole represented socialists or had the kind of speculative and personal sympathies for socialism which Orwell would later manifest.

    They're credited with being creaters of guild socialism, which was largely an intellectual movement itself and condemned as a middle class attempt to gentrify or diffuse the threat of syndicalism.

    However what I like most about them, especially Cole, was the extent to which he'd enter practical politics and develop policy, such as full employment economic policy, but equally insist this was VERY different affairs to socialism proper and had such a clear eye for it being paternalism and "good for capitalism" as much as anyone.

    I think that maybe a slightly naive view of Americans. For one thing, we do have a strong tradition of populism which could be said to date back to Jeffersonian themes, and it certainly blossomed during th late 19th and early 20th centuries.
    I know the history, I'm well acquainted with a lot of it but I'm also pretty sure of a lot of the US political scene, not from interaction with people online alone but lots of US ex-pats here in Ireland. As cultural emissarees (spelling) they are totally on message with Rand's version of capitalism red in tooth and claw.

  7. #57
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hmm, I dont like either of those categories, it could just be prejudice again though. They just make me think of punk kids and intellectuals.
    Well I usually try to seperate the punk kids from say Bakunin, Kropotkin, or even Proudhon earlier.

    I know the history, I'm well acquainted with a lot of it but I'm also pretty sure of a lot of the US political scene, not from interaction with people online alone but lots of US ex-pats here in Ireland. As cultural emissarees (spelling) they are totally on message with Rand's version of capitalism red in tooth and claw.
    I'm well acquainted with the history of my country too, and with the many undercurrent present that often go unnoticed by foreigners.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes I'm aware of that. Just a few days ago I was reading the recent biography of Engels, and it noted much about his views concerning for example the American Civil War. Marx and Engels were sympathetic to the Union, as were other German socialists of the time(some of whom even volunteered for military service).
    But equally Engels said a lot which would embarrass Ron Paul, he totally attacked the development of the US state from a few nightwatch men over seeing the Indians to a class of salaried and pensioned officials like the Europe.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The funny thing about the class structure in the US is that, while there are no titles of nobility, many of the forms and functions of fuedalism are nevertheless present. There is the leadership class (leaders in government, industry, and culture) who make all the policy decisions and control capital. There is a functional middle class that corresponds to the merchants, artisans, and tradesmen, and there is a gruntwork class of proles who correspond to the serfs... the laborers and factory line workers.

    The major differences in the US are 1) there is class mobility for those with the talent, fortitude, and luck to push themselves up into the next stratum, and 2) everyone in the US, regardless of his or her social class, is theoretically equal under the law.

    I say "theoretically" because I have seen enough exceptions to rule 2 to make me question its validity, but nevertheless I have to conclude that the ruling class in the US still is more answerable to the law than was the ruling class in medieval Europe, say for example.

    I don't know that any nation has ever fully evaded the forms of feudalism completely for any significant length of time, though I am admittedly woefully ignorant on this topic.
    I dont think there's any mobility, not really, perhaps in a couple of generations plumbers could become social workers or other graduate stream professionals and then back again but its not he same as people rising to the 1% and back again. The Hiltons are the Hiltons, you know?

    Some of the greatest class analysis has come out of the US, for instance C. Wright Mills and The Power Elite for instance and even a lot of the conservative analysis.

Similar Threads

  1. Political Bias and Irrationality
    By La de Longe in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-01-2010, 04:09 PM
  2. 7th Function Bias and Literary Archetype
    By Haphazard in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-10-2008, 12:50 AM
  3. Suicide and social power
    By labyrinthine in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 09-04-2007, 03:04 AM
  4. Relational Competition and "Social" Bullying
    By Maverick in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 05-24-2007, 08:24 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO