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Thread: Racism

  1. #191
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    And it doesn't matter.
    Actually it does, since this involves matters of orthodoxy ie "right thinking". Whether it matters to you is another affair.

  2. #192
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Actually it does, since this involves matters of orthodoxy ie "right thinking". Whether it matters to you is another affair.
    The manner in which people behave in regards to their religion is the main part of how much it matters to me. And it seems that the people I have the most reason to mind have particularly little concern for orthodoxy or a reasonable interpretation of passages. You are running into an ivory tower problem.

    And since we seem to be getting more off track all the time, ultimately the point I was making is that, as far as I can see, the position like the one held by Marmalade, there's a in inconsistency in regards of how to judge Christianity vs how to judge Islam, which could just as well be turned the other way. The flexibility is such that anything said of one I can throw at the other.
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  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    And since we seem to be getting more off track all the time, ultimately the point I was making is that, as far as I can see, the position like the one held by Marmalade, there's a in inconsistency in regards of how to judge Christianity vs how to judge Islam, which could just as well be turned the other way. The flexibility is such that anything said of one I can throw at the other.
    I saw your point, but insisting upon some right to misinterpret scriptures and dismiss theological scholarship all in the name of proving a simple point seems to point more to sophistry than actual intelligent discussion.

  4. #194
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It kinda gets back to Rousseau's call of how reluctant people need be "forced to be free."
    Lol that reminds me of 70s American feminist quote roughly "Women must not be stay at home moms. You must not give women a choice to work OR to be a housewife, precisely because they would choose to be a housewife"

    I do understand the gist of that quote (both Rousseau's and the American feminists one). In actuality you have to account for the differences in culture and your own bias. I think Americans often confuse their own bias for moral superiority. It's possible to apply "universal" moral principles through a very myopic or selective lens. Sure you might be right about this one case but you completely missed the other 3 because it's not as exotic or obvious.

    For me, I don't trust anyone who is so unaware of their personal bias that they can't admit to it. Or confuse the two - personal bias with morality.

    For me, I see there being many gradations. And I think I would take people calls to "liberate" others more seriously when I see how in their own lives they are applying their own principles and living righteously. "Doctor heal thyself"

    I have seen this in many different contexts. Basically until you at least understand or respect the culture you are just another imperialist, an outsider, someone who thinks you are better than the people you are trying to help. It's true because it is true and also because the people you try to help believe it. In times of true crisis - say a war the people will accept your help but otherwise you are the enemy. Heck even in war you might still be the enemy.
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  5. #195
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I saw your point, but insisting upon some right to misinterpret scriptures and dismiss theological scholarship all in the name of proving a simple point seems to point more to sophistry than actual intelligent discussion.
    I still think there are plenty of valids points all their own in my argument up to now.

    And I'm not so much concerned with anyone's supposed right do it as I am with someone's power to do it.
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  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Lol that reminds me of 70s American feminist quote roughly "Women must not be stay at home moms. You must not give women a choice to work OR to be a housewife, precisely because they would choose to be a housewife"

    I do understand the gist of that quote (both Rousseau's and the American feminists one). In actuality you have to account for the differences in culture and your own bias. I think Americans often confuse their own bias for moral superiority. It's possible to apply "universal" moral principles through a very myopic or selective lens. Sure you might be right about this one case but you completely missed the other 3 because it's not as exotic or obvious.

    For me, I don't trust anyone who is so unaware of their personal bias that they can't admit to it. Or confuse the two - personal bias with morality.

    For me, I see there being many gradations. And I think I would take people calls to "liberate" others more seriously when I see how in their own lives they are applying their own principles and living righteously. "Doctor heal thyself"

    I have seen this in many different contexts. Basically until you at least understand or respect the culture you are just another imperialist, an outsider, someone who thinks you are better than the people you are trying to help. It's true because it is true and also because the people you try to help believe it. In times of true crisis - say a war the people will accept your help but otherwise you are the enemy. Heck even in war you might still be the enemy.
    Out of the two, I prefer Rousseau, who at least had considerations for the different history and cultures of various peoples - as noted for example in his draft constitutions for Corsica and Poland. As a result of the Enlightenment, we tend to apply abstract principles across the board in regards to issues in different cultures, which are seen as just holdouts of previous eras of barbarism according to this mentality. The ideal is one of a universal cosmopolitanism where such identities are rendered moot or submerged underneath the grandeur of an abstract understanding of man.

    Since we're on the topic of racism, this does ironically amount to a form of racism since usually it's Western cultures that are most "enlightened" and cosmopolitan, thus being the spearhead for the rest of the world. This was a major argument made in favor of imperialism, in that it brought "civilization" to unknown savage lands. Yet such an abstract understanding of mankind ignores a fundamental part of what it means to be human, namely to have a cultural identity.

    There are issues involved here but I'm not in the best of moods to go in depth right now.

  7. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    The Color of Fear was quite an eye-opener for me. I have trouble finding the whole of it online. It is a 1-2 hour round table discussion with a group of men who are ethnically diverse. It shows part of the process of the perspective of a white individual whose view is encased in the assumptions of white privilege being gradually dismantled. I can find a few clips on youtube.

    [youtube=0Rbfh5oM3EQ]The Color of Fear trailer[/youtube]

    This is the "Red Ground" scene from "The Color of Fear".
    YouTube - StirfrySeminars.com Presents The Color of Fear-The 'Red Ground' Scene

    Brilliant Documentary, Searching for it myself was extremely difficult to find, but luckily I was able to find it, below is a link to the entire film, you will need Realplayer to watch it.

    Color of Fear

  8. #198
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    The cure for racism is in Chess.
    Oh, its
    You
    ....

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
    The cure for racism is in Chess.
    I find the game too black and white for my tastes.

    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  10. #200
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    My, Oberon, that's so Old Left of you.
    Really? I had no idea.

    It's based on observation, though. I can expand on that idea if you like.

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