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  1. #21
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    How many people has Hirsi condemned to death?
    None. As far as I know.

    But then again, since she has been widely published, one could argue that she does contribute to the mood music.

    Are you suggesting we should be less critical of those we might agree with?

    Doesn't the fact that much of Hirsi's biography has been proven to be contrived bother you?

    Consistency and probity are usually prerequisites of an academic. Hirsi has neither.

    Call me radical, but I have a bigger problem with the people who want to blow me up because I won't wear a fucking head scarf.
    Understandable. You're a radical. A striped paper one.

    You might wish to put you fears into context. Your chances of being blown up by a loony with a bomb pale into insignificance next to your chances of dying in a road accident (assuming you drive).

    BBC News - Interactive map: A decade of road deaths

    I recommend you stay away from the London Underground or take the train instead of flying.

    But then again, Islamic terrorism is big news. The 25,000 people killed on the roads over the past decade hardly gets a mention in the news.

    How much of an existential threat do you think radical Islamism really poses? Put your Daily Mail away and start thinking for yourself.

    BTW. The 7/7 bombers weren't that bothered if some of their victims were scarf-wearing Muslims or otherwise. A religious loony is a religious loony.

    The guy that murdered Van Gogh is now in prison for life with no possibilty of parole. How would you suggest we deal with him? Cut off his head.

  2. #22
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I like people from all Judeo-Christian/Islamic religions, but they are much more easy for the rest of the human population to relax around if they are of the more laid back or mystic traditions (in Islam's case, Sufi). Islam will never go away, so there's no point complaining about it. The best you hope for is that those more humane traditions like Sufism become representative of the religion as a whole. Attacking the whole thing however just adds fuel to the fire, and encourages radicals to gain more followers.

  3. #23
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Your chances of being blown up by a loony with a bomb pale into insignificance next to your chances of dying in a road accident.
    I am sure this is true in the UK. However across the world, the Jihadists carry out mass murder and intimidation every day.

  4. #24
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Are you suggesting we should be less critical of those we might agree with?

    Doesn't the fact that much of Hirsi's biography has been proven to be contrived bother you?
    I'm not interested in dragging the woman over the coals. I'll leave that to Shariah enthusiasts. Nor am I particularly interested in her character - I'm not electing her to office. I evaluate what people have to say based on the merit of their arguments, not their personal history. You should try it sometime. And I don't think she has said anything particularly startling or controversial.

    Or are you suggesting that Islamic terrorism is a non-issue?

    You might wish to put you fears into context. Your chances of being blown up by a loony with a bomb pale into insignificance next to your chances of dying in a road accident (assuming you drive).
    ...
    How much of an existential threat do you think radical Islamism really poses? Put your Daily Mail away and start thinking for yourself.

    BTW. The 7/7 bombers weren't that bothered if some of their victims were scarf-wearing Muslims or otherwise. A religious loony is a religious loony.
    I'm not afraid of either. I am inconvenienced by the fact that I'm required to undergo a full body search every time I want to board a plane. Other than that, and the huge burden to the tax payer of some totally ineffective military and security measures, it doesn't really affect me directly.
    I was just taking issue with your demonization of a woman for stretching the truth, whilst glossing over the hate crimes of fanatical maniacs.
    The guy that murdered Van Gogh is now in prison for life with no possibility of parole. How would you suggest we deal with him? Cut off his head.
    Yes, that's exactly what the OP was suggesting.

    You're capable of making an intelligent response to the OP's question. You just haven't done it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #25
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I am sure this is true in the UK. However across the world, the Jihadists carry out mass murder and intimidation every day.
    And every year millions of people catch malaria and many of them die.

    You'll just have to accept political violence as a fact of life in the same way you accept all those unfortunated who die of malaria. - Many, many more than are killed Jihadis.

    This, Victor, old chap, is how you evaluate risk. Not by promulgating nonsense. Fifty-something people died in 7/7. That's about a week's worth of road kill.

    BTW. You haven't addressed any of the points regarding Hirsi that I've raised so far. Would you care to comment?

  6. #26
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    You'll just have to accept political violence as a fact of life
    Sure. Political violence we can tolerate. Political chicanery on the other hand...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #27
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    You'll just have to accept political violence as a fact of life..
    When I was forming my first political views, I decided to exclude political violence.

    So you might say excluding political violence is the cornerstone of my political beliefs.

    And as we have discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, the cornerstone of my political beliefs is the limitation of power. And fortunately that is the principle on which my State is founded.

    So at the philosophical and practical levels, I don't accept political violence as a fact of life.

    However I am not a pacifist, and I do accept violence by my lawfully constituted State. Of course I do think it should be a last resort, except in the case of genocide, where it should be the first resort.

    So I would have to overturn my political beliefs to accept political violence.

  8. #28
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    After watching a few segments of Hirsi's story that you posted, bananatrombones, I couldn't conclude much. The woman came from a broken home albeit from a strong mother and loving father. Hirsi's brother was portrayed as neutral at worst with some semblance of affection for his wayward sister.

    The inconsistencies regarding some parts of Hirsi's story will probably never be solved. My best guess is that she wanted her freedom and didn't want to be married at all at the time, but she came or comes across as someone who takes opportunities as they present themselves, and so she did her best with the ticket out of where she had landed herself.

    She may be a liar. She may have a message to tell the world. Dunno from what I watched and I'm not particularly interested in the subject enough to follow the intricacies. If she does help oppressed women in the world, not just muslim, that would be great however. Don't you think? For the most part I get the sense she is sx/sp and/or enfp, and probably has no great aspirations for liberating women or creating change that doesn't involved herself.

    Is this way off base?

  9. #29
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I'm not interested in dragging the woman over the coals. I'll leave that to Shariah enthusiasts. Nor am I particularly interested in her character - I'm not electing her to office. I evaluate what people have to say based on the merit of their arguments,
    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    In her book The Virgin's Cage, she claims her sister came to the Netherlands to escape a arranged marriage; by Infidel, the story has changed - her sister needed an abortion after having an affair.
    Me neither. But so-called academics making controversial assertions I have no problem dragging over the coals.

    It's interesting that, in an academic sense, you'll let her off the hook because she's a woman.

    This is called discrimination and it has no place in the world of literary criticism.

    But then again you're confusing her rights as a writer (she has none) to her rights as a woman.

    Dust your ears out, Blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Sure. Political violence we can tolerate.
    Who said that. Did I say that - or did you say that?

    Van Gogh's murderer has been jailed for life - something which I fully approve.

    Naughty, naughty, Blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by wren View Post

    Is this way off base?
    Try watching all of the documentary, for starters. It gets racier.

  10. #30
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    You might wish to put you fears into context. Your chances of being blown up by a loony with a bomb pale into insignificance next to your chances of dying in a road accident (assuming you drive).
    Terrorism has always had highly negative effects beyond the immediate deaths it engenders-do you really think black Americans were foolish to fear the Klan more than riding a horse or automobile? Did FARC pose only a minor danger to the Colombian state a few years ago, because the deaths that it dealt were so much smaller than the number of automobile deaths? You're comparing apples to oranges.

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