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  1. #101
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    And Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been saying as much since 2002, when she declared herself, with Spartacus-like zeal, an athiest.

    As a former politician, her appeal is her simplicity. No funny long-winded or complex explanations for problems are necessary. The mental illness of her sister (Islam is to blame); escaping from a violent arranged marriage (Islam is to blame); abortions, affairs, etc. Islam is, of course, always to blame. But given the universal nature of many of the problems she lays at the foot of Islam, it's hard not to conclude she might be over-egging the pancake mixture.

    In her book The Virgin's Cage, she claims her sister came to the Netherlands to escape a arranged marriage; by Infidel, the story has changed - her sister needed an abortion after having an affair. In both cases (whichever one is true) women are the victim and Islam is to blame. The theme continues...

    Prior to arriving in the Netherlands (from Kenya, not Somalia as she claimed when applying for asylum) she observed the Wahhabi tradition (like her father). She even endorsed the fatwa on Salman Rushdie and had ties with the Muslim Brotherhood. She was, by her own account, a zealot.

    On entering Holland she also neglected to mention this, but helpfully concocted a story about being threatened with clan violence in Somalia. Strange, because she's been living in Kenya for over 10 years, living a rather middle class lifesyle.

    In case the Dutch twigged and sent her back, she "amended" her name to Hirsi (from Magan) and changed her date of birth. However, while in Parliament she embraced radical anti-immigration (read anti-Islamic) policies (after changing political parties), which didn't quite tie in with her original declarations. But hey, guess who was to blame for her telling lies?

    A Dutch TV documentary investigated many of Ali's claims and found many of them convenient fantasies. She is, by her own admission a liar. Have a goosie-gander, Victor:

    [YOUTUBE="Z82C10myBmM"]Ayaan Hirsi Ali[/YOUTUBE]

    Part 2: YouTube - Ayaan Hirsi Ali/Magaan - the true story part 2

    The problem is, if you claim your experience of Islam was violent and primitive, and that "experience" turns out to be a concoction of lies, half-truths and pure fantasy, it doesn't necessarily make her contentions untrue, but it does dent her credibility. But that hasn't stopped Hirsi II from pursuing her new found athiesm with the kind of zeal one might expect from an Islamic fundamentalist. Touche.

    That said, she is a fascinating and compelling character, for sure; but she is not the modern age Voltaire she'd like to be. As an academic she displays little of the integrity required to make the kind of serious allegations she bandies willy-nilly; as a politician, that lack of integrity has done her rather well.

    And she's made a nice living of playing the eternal victim, at a cost of over $4M dollars to the Dutch taxpayer, for her security arrangements.

    Source: Amazon.com: Infidel (9780743289689): Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Books
    Hi Tromby
    Here the snow ploughs plough snow that do not exist.
    Street lights burn day and night.
    Bloody bureaucrats order the police to haul aspie kids from their loving homes and place them into an institution.

    How pays? The tax payer.
    To what end?

    We may or may not agree to what she says but she has the right to say it.
    As for telling lies to silly bureaucrats, it is not a crime.
    It is a recommendable action.

    The bureaucrats do not only lie and murder, they steal our tax money.

  2. #102
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Blind to how we see.

    We perceive by making distinctions.

    For instance, when we are born the first question they ask, "Is it a boy or a girl". So gender is a fundamental distinction.

    And an even more fundamental is the distinction between the inner and the outer, giving us introversion and extroversion - the version of inner and outer - intro and extro.

    So we see by the light of distinctions. And almost all of our distinctions are given to us.

    For instance, Christianity gives us the distinction of sin and forgiveness while Islam gives us the distinction of shame and honour.

    These two different distinctions give us two entirely different world views.

    And we have the female/male distinction and the shame/honour distinction combining to give us Sharia Law.

    So honour is inherent in the man and shame is inherent in the woman, so it is necessary for Sharia to hobble the woman so she will not bring shame on the man.

    In contrast in Christianity a woman or a man can be forgiven for sin.

    Unfortunately we are blind to how we see.

  3. #103
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    My dear Victor,


    You probably know very well, that I do not consider radical Islamism to be minor issue to world's peace. And especially because I think that indeed, it is a totalitarism.

    If you check every major work of Arendt, what she wrote about Nazism and Stalinism can apply almost word to word to radical Islamism: it's very surprising, but unfortunately, it works. Even with the specific sociological explaination (frustration and feeling of humiliation, coupled with the failures of traditional ideologies... and so on).

    So yes, radical Islamism is a major threat to mankind just like other forms of totalitarism were: they predate the human mind, and they have to be eradicated, since you cannot negociate with them.

    BUT.

    Do not confuse this modern POLITICAL movement (because yes, it is very modern and very new) with Islam as a whole.

    And about your comment, I'd say you are confusing Islam with the Code of the Bushido.
    Between me and you, that's not exactly the same thing. Islam is a religion of misericord. And once again, it's more complex than that.
    One of the only thing that might be frightening with Islam, is the fact it has never been a religion of peace, at least so far (unless with the Ahmadiyyas?), and that the concept of "fight" is deeply imbedded into its different versions: there's always an enemy to blame, whether outside you or inside you.
    But so was Christianity during centuries: a religion of "love" is not necessarily a religion of peace.

    And I hate proselytizers: the desire to control the thoughts of your neighbours and suppress his/her identity to make a copy of your own is the root of all evil.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 02-10-2010 at 04:27 AM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    My dear Victor,

    You probably know very well, that I do not consider radical Islamism to be minor issue to world's peace. And especially because I think that indeed, it is a totalitarism.

    If you check every major works of Arendt, what she wrote about Nazism and Stalinism can apply almost word to word to radical Islamism: it's very surprising, but unfortunately, it works. Even with the specific sociological explaination (frustration and feeling of humiliation, coupled with the failures of traditional ideologies... and so on).

    So yes, radical Islamism is a major threat to mankind just like other forms of totalitarism were: they predate the human mind, and they have to be eradicated, since you cannot negociate with them.

    BUT.

    Do not confuse this modern POLITICAL movement (because yes, it is very modern and very new) with Islam as a whole.

    And about your comment, I'd say you are confusing Islam with the Code of the Bushido.
    Between me and you, that's not exactly the same thing. Islam is a religion of misericord. And once again, it's more complex than that.
    One of the only thing that might be frightening with Islam, is the fact it has never been a religion of peace, at least so far (unless with the Ahmadiyyas?), and that the concept of "fight" is deeply imbedded into its different versions: there's always an enemy to blame, whether outside you or inside you.
    But so were Christianity during centuries: a religion of "love" is not necessarily a religion of peace.

    And I hate proselytizers: the desire to control the thoughts of your neighbours and suppress his/her identity to make a copy of your own is the root of all evil.
    Yes.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    And I hate proselytizers: the desire to control the thoughts of your neighbours and suppress his/her identity to make a copy of your own is the root of all evil.
    I agree.

    Men from sea to shore brandish flags of all sorts of colors and patterns.
    The flags symbolize ideas, dreams, religions, politics.
    But some men enjoy proselytizing, or even killing in the name of their flag.
    If all men are dead, then the flags fade into rubbish. They are only upheld as long as a man lives.
    But is enforcing a universal flag that says "all men have the right to carry a flag" not proselytizing itself?

  6. #106
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Hi Tromby
    We may or may not agree to what she says but she has the right to say it.
    As for telling lies to silly bureaucrats, it is not a crime.
    It is a recommendable action.

    The bureaucrats do not only lie and murder, they steal our tax money.
    Insightful as ever, wildcat.

    I can forgive a bent politician but not a bent writer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    My dear Victor,

    One of the only thing that might be frightening with Islam, is the fact it has never been a religion of peace, at least so far (unless with the Ahmadiyyas?), and that the concept of "fight" is deeply imbedded into its different versions: there's always an enemy to blame, whether outside you or inside you.
    But so were Christianity during centuries: a religion of "love" is not necessarily a religion of peace.
    What's your view on the question, Blackmail! That Islam requires an Enlightenment all of its own?

    As Victor has hid behind the skirt of Hirsi, it's difficult to know whether he endorses her views or merely her Spartacus-like rebellion against her old beliefs.

    For example, Judaism seems to have had a similar starting point in its seeming irreconcilablity with "enlightened" values as Islam at the moment. The suggestion that Islam cannot reinvent itself seems to stem from the same well as the (very many) Enlightenment thinkers that thought jews incapable of fitting in to modern Europe.

    It's interesting to note that Napoleon I did more for jews in France than many of France's prominent thinkers. And he was a soldier.

  7. #107
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    No, but Islamic extremists are dangerous totalitarians who are making a mockery of their "faith."
    Thank you, good point. I have to wonder why nobody seems to notice or acknowledge that radical/violent Muslims constitute a tiny, tiny minority of the faith.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #108
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Thank you, good point. I have to wonder why nobody seems to notice or acknowledge that radical/violent Muslims constitute a tiny, tiny minority of the faith.
    Quite right, sw. It seems such an obvious point. What's interesting is however often the point is made (and it has been made several times in this thread) it is never properly address or is simply ignored.

    We wouldn't want the truth to get in the way of a bit of drama - just ask Victor. - Or read the The Australian down your local bakery every day, to prime you with all the news and goss necessary to form a perochial worldview where everything is black and white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Do not confuse this modern POLITICAL movement (because yes, it is very modern and very new) with Islam as a whole.
    Another glaringly obvious truth. But then again, Blackmail!, you perceive by making distinctions, Victor does not.

    It's interesting, having travelled in north Africa and the middle east, how many Muslims make exactly the same mistake and wrongly blame wars and conflicts on Christian "crusaders" and Zionism.

    It seems we may have more in common with them than we think.

    And about your comment, I'd say you are confusing Islam with the Code of the Bushido.
    I'm afraid that's the level of sophistication the OP has pitched his tent. But Victor is Typo-c's very own delusional Spartacus. A veritable white ninja who speaks of "Sharia law" not only on the assumption that we know what he means but on the shaky assumption that he himself knows what he's talking about (as his veneer of awareness of the Enlightenment period demonstrates).

    Victor almost certainly is unaware of the very high likelihood that the Common Law practiced in Australia almost certainly is derived in part from Sharia, brought to the Old Merry by the Normans.

    He'll even agree with you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes.
    ... without taking on board any of the points or picking up any of the nuances of what you say...

    I used to think he was playing Devil's Advocate, which requires a degree of sophistication.

    It's clear he is simply a deluded buffoon who vastly overvalues his tenuous grasp of reality with one swoop of his tar brush.

    ----

    BTW, Blackmail! I'd value your views on Judaism during the period of the Enlightenment. (For the purposes of discussion that period may go beyond the founding of modern Australia in 1788... And it might go back as far as Descartes. Who knows?)

  9. #109
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Insightful as ever, wildcat.

    I can forgive a bent politician but not a bent writer.

    What's your view on the question, Blackmail! That Islam requires an Enlightenment all of its own?

    As Victor has hid behind the skirt of Hirsi, it's difficult to know whether he endorses her views or merely her Spartacus-like rebellion against her old beliefs.

    For example, Judaism seems to have had a similar starting point in its seeming irreconcilablity with "enlightened" values as Islam at the moment. The suggestion that Islam cannot reinvent itself seems to stem from the same well as the (very many) Enlightenment thinkers that thought jews incapable of fitting in to modern Europe.

    It's interesting to note that Napoleon I did more for jews in France than many of France's prominent thinkers. And he was a soldier.
    The alternative is to bend or crack.
    Bend is better.

    Victor is correct. He often is.
    We lost.

    Bonaparte was a bad soldier.
    But he was a good thinker.

    Heidegger on the other hand was a good soldier.
    But he was a bad thinker.

  10. #110
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Islam won't get an Enlightenment. They will get hot dogs, Elvis, and endless reruns of Friends.

    That should calm them down all the same though. No one can resist.

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