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  1. #41
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    They'll get to their breaking point though. France is already starting to make strides against Muslim fundamentalism. However it is not surprising they are the first ones to do so - the French have always been very nationalistic, and view themselves as one of the primary victims of WW2 (hence, less of a guilt trip). But the rest of Europe will follow soon enough.
    As Bananatrombones already pointed, the current "strides" made by the French government have nothing to do with nationalism or anti-Islamism, but rather with secularism and conflicting values (See-> Laïcité - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

    France is one the most (if not the most) secular state in the world, and also holds the highest % of strong Atheists in the world (between 30 to 40%, according to polls. See-> Fichier:Europe-atheism-2005.svg - Wikipédia).

    It took a long a long time for the French goverment to tame the Catholic church (1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), and hence it cannot tolerate from others what it already doesn't from Catholics.

    Hence, in public administrations or state schools, no conspicuous religious signs are allowed. It means that one can wear something very discreet (like a small crucific, a star of David or an hamsa), but NOT a kippa, or an headcarf.

    The French Jewish community has always "played the game", and respected the French law to the letter, so they never posed a real problem. As a matter of fact, the 1905 law allowed them to become more emancipated than ever. With the Catholics, as aforementioned, it took decades of long lasting feuds, but eventually they were subdued.
    With the Muslims, well, at first, this community never created a problem. Radical Islamism, as we know it, arose only during the 90'es, so it's a very recent issue. And let's not be hypocritical, for those militants, it's not a question of religious belief (according to polls, a majority of French muslims agrees with the 1905 law), but it's rather a POLITICAL issue.

    Wearing the hidjab or the burqa is not a question of faith: it's rather a way for young Islamists to express a political message. And hence their tactics is to deliberately seek conflict with the law: it gives them a tremendous publicity in the medias.
    It's also a way to express their disagrement with the current French and Western values: they say they don't wan't to be a part of the French society, and never will be. And when they say they don't want to live with us, they totally reject the process of sociological integration and desegregation, which lies at the cornerstone of the French Republic: equal rights and duties to all, no exception, no preferential treatment!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #42
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    My "barometer of Islamic fundamentalism" in Europe is based more on things like riots in Malmo, murder of Theo Van Gogh, attempted murder of Kurt Westergaard, etc.
    In France, you also have the case of Robert Redeker, and several others.

    Robert Redeker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The truth is that nowadays in public medias, whoever dares to make hostile comments against Islam must be prepared to live under police protection for the rest of his life. A bit excessive, isn't it?

    While for instance I do not agree at all with the paper of Redeker, the aggressiveness and intolerance of radical Islamists is a very disturbing fact, which reminds us the way Christian fundamentalists used to behave not so long ago.

    See: "On October 22, 1988, a French Christian fundamentalist group launched molotov cocktails inside the Parisian Saint Michel movie theater to protest against the film [The Last Temptation of Christ, by Martin Scorcese]. This attack injured thirteen people, four of whom were severely burned."
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #43
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post

    As far as UK law is concerned, you can say what ever you want as long as it does not "incite" hatred.
    It's exactly the same in the French law (Even if the legal system is supposed to be very different betwen Anglo-Saxon and Roman law, I've often noticed how similar our results and conclusions were).

    Hate speech is considered a crime, and it's even worst if you ask for a public lynching, or if you threaten the life of somebody else in public.
    In private, however, you can say or think whatever you want (and that's fortunate).

    ---

    In France you also have the very controversial Loi Gayssot:

    -> Loi Gayssot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I should add this law is not only about Holocaust denial, because denials of the Armenian or Tutsi genocides are also namely included, and have led to a similar penal jurisprudence.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #44
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    In France, you also have the case of Robert Redeker, and several others.

    Robert Redeker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Is he related to Paul Redeker?

    Redeker Plan - Zombie Wiki - Zombies, Undead, Survival Guide
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  5. #45
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It's exactly the same in the French law (Even if the legal system is supposed to be very different betwen Anglo-Saxon and Roman law, I've often noticed how similar our results and conclusions were).

    Hate speech is considered a crime, and it's even worst if you ask for a public lynching, or if you threaten the life of somebody in public.
    In private, however, you can say or think whatever you want (and that's fortunate).

    ---

    In France you also have the very controversial Loi Gayssot:

    -> Loi Gayssot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I should add this law is not only about Holocaust denial, because the denial of the Armenian or Tutsi genocides are also namely included, and have led to a similar penal jurisprudence.
    English Common Law is thought sufficiently robust in dealing with holocaust denial - although it's interesting that David Irving used (unsucessfully) Libel Law to protect his right to deny - Civil Law.

    But, in principal, there would be nothing to stop someone writing a long book denying the Holocaust, filled with dubious assertions, highly selective factoids and large gaps in inconvenient evidence.

  6. #46
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Any more than a hoodie - or big sunglasses and a straw hat?

    In France and Turkey the issue has absolutely nothing to do with security - it's about secularism.

    No. If we're still talking about France, banning headscarves does not entail that the French government view Islam in any shape or form as "undesirable", as you put it.
    1.) A burqa is quite a bit more concealing, not only of the face but of the entire body. Furthermore, quite a few male suicide bombers in Pakistan and Afghanistan have utilized that garment to avoid detection. I'm aware that security is not the primary reason for such a law within France, buts its a plausible enough justification that I would not reference the proposed burqa ban as an example of European violations on free speech or religious freedom.

    2.) Enforcing a secular (which in France seems to mean "irreligious" rather than representing a lack of state bias or favoritism regarding an individual's religious beliefs or lack thereof) atmosphere is simply not a good enough reason, and essentially amounts to state bias against religiosity in any form. Furthermore, it was the issue of headscarves that led to such an all-encompassing ban on public displays of religious belief; the bias against non-Muslim displays of religiosity is incidental face-saving, the ban originated with Muslims in mind.

    As for the rest, some rights and freedoms are more important than others; for example, freedom of religion and freedom of speech are among a select group of rights that make the security of all other rights possible, and are therefore objectively (as well as subjectively, IMO) more important than the right to gamble, smoke pot or buy alcohol on Sundays (though such restrictions are indeed quite aggravating!). And for the record, since WWII Western Europe has until recently generally had a better record on certain other types of rights (most notably equality under the law) than my country....but Europe is simply deficient when in comes to this very important issue, and in modern times such violations do not qualify as necessary evils.

  7. #47
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Why do conservatives couch every policy question in eschatological terms?

  8. #48
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) A burqa is quite a bit more concealing, not only of the face but of the entire body. Furthermore, quite a few male suicide bombers in Pakistan and Afghanistan have utilized that garment to avoid detection. I'm aware that security is not the primary reason for such a law within France, buts its a plausible enough justification that I would not reference the proposed burqa ban as an example of European violations on free speech or religious freedom.
    Name one incident of a burqa bomb in Europe. You'll find a rusksack is slightly more practical.

    Get a grip, man. That's utter piffle you speak.

    Enforcing a secular (which in France seems to mean "irreligious" rather than representing a lack of state bias or favoritism regarding an individual's religious beliefs or lack thereof) atmosphere is simply not a good enough reason, and essentially amounts to state bias against religiosity in any form. Furthermore, it was the issue of headscarves that led to such an all-encompassing ban on public displays of religious belief; the bias against non-Muslim displays of religiosity is incidental face-saving, the ban originated with Muslims in mind.
    Read Blackmail!'s post above, LR. You'll find that France has Civil Law (not Common Law) and such measures are often necessary to clarify existing legislation.

    If you don't know what you're talking about it's best to keep quite. You paint a shallow and completely inaccurate picture of free speech in Europe "in peril" but have offered not even one shred of tangible evidence to back up your contentions.

    Have you ever lived in Europe? Anywhere in Europe - there's lots of countries, all with different legal systems, to chose from?

    Be a devil. Move to Belgium.

    And for the record, since WWII Western Europe has until recently generally had a better record on certain other types of rights (most notably equality under the law) than my country....but Europe is simply deficient when in comes to this very important issue, and in modern times such violations do not qualify as necessary evils.
    Utterly meaningless piffle. What on earth are you wittering on about?

    Cheers to you.

  9. #49
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Read Blackmail!'s post above, LR. You'll find that France has Civil Law (not Common Law) and such measures are often necessary to clarify existing legislation.

    If you don't know what you're talking about it's best to keep quite. You paint a shallow and completely inaccurate picture of free speech in Europe "in peril" but have offered not even one shred of tangible evidence to back up your contentions.
    Blackmail and I have debated this issue before; we essentially agreed to disagree.

    I'm aware of the differences between Common law and Code law ("civil" law has different connotations in predominantly Common law countries)

    Also, I'm aware that free speech is better protected within Europe than in most places of the world; I simply think such protections are not nearly robust enough in light of actual European conditions.

  10. #50
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Utterly meaningless piffle. What on earth are you wittering on about?
    Things like previous fascist governments or France's past troubles with an illiberal Catholic Church.

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