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  1. #21
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The email is more a symptom than a cause... the problem is that no one wants to solve problems. In the end it comes down to a lack of rational process in order to solve problems. When two people disagree on how to solve a problem the goal is the same... when two people disagree on some superficial problem (like D vs R), then you end up in what amounts to a flame war... An email like this is just the trolling version of the flame war, so to speak. While it is going on the normal process can't.

    It's the same dynamics as in strata for an apartment building. There is always someone trolling around. If the group loses focus (or are just freaking stupid, which is normally the case) and starts dealing with the abstractions - the camps, etc... then it falls apart.
    So focus becomes the essence of getting things done politically. How do we shift focus from beliefs to problems? I can see now how this kind of humor, and the media in general, can degrade the process, but what needs to be done so as not to sensationalize, but to motivate the American public?

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    So focus becomes the essence of getting things done politically. How do we shift focus from beliefs to problems? I can see now how this kind of humor, and the media in general, can degrade the process, but what needs to be done so as not to sensationalize, but to motivate the American public?
    That's a really complicated issue and honestly, I think there is no solution... it's evolution in process. As a nation the public memory, identity and systems plod along without change, running their course. The past events/concepts/memories lead to actions that rose to the top created a very strong meme of this independent libertarian/anti government/etc which won't budge as situations/knowledge/competitors change. Outside pressures are building to force adaption but the meme has taken over - a real cultural war, if you call catch phrases and such culture. The natural outcome is adapt or perish. The systemic problem is the unwillingness to change, not with the underlying philosophy (efficiencies, sure, but not critical). The lack of participation is largely following this path as a side effect. The "problems" aren't addressed as problems - they are simply things that don't fit into the meme of the public (everything from global warming to war - which no doubt will encourage someone to want to react saying "real", "fake", "had to" etc... that's the point).

    The most likely cause of a change to the collective mindset is a traumatic event. A serious depression, a serious collapse, war, disease... these would alter the events. It would force people to take responsibility for more than themselves - one of the core tenets of the US. It would force people to self organise rather than assume the system will organise for them (minimally, of course, because any contribution to the system is inherently abusive).

    The other possible outcome would be a serious overhaul at the very top by a very rogue candidate. Any change could cause a chain reaction. Leaders have changed the direction of an entire country before.

    This is very low level - politics as an expression of the underlying society. Academia produces loads of information that is rejected under "don't tell me what to do"... People are voted on abstractions, even memes. These "pass" the values up into politics and politics acts on these abstractions. The cycle repeats. Sure you have a few edge cases, like Bush administration and the events that followed, but they are just the tail end of the results of the social pressures - the average person, the average distribution - just has a mean solidly in the "leave me alone" part... so it slowly snowballs in that direction.
    Last edited by ptgatsby; 11-22-2007 at 08:38 PM.

  3. #23
    Junior Member Figmentum's Avatar
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    I never mentioned my side on this. For some of you to assume that I don't like Hillary is a little absurd. But in the end, you are right... for the wrong reason. I agree with most of the quotes, but as for her, I don't trust her in the least.
    What better way to rid the world of all the walking waste? - Nothingface

  4. #24
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figmentum View Post
    I never mentioned my side on this. For some of you to assume that I don't like Hillary is a little absurd. But in the end, you are right... for the wrong reason. I agree with most of the quotes, but as for her, I don't trust her in the least.
    I would prefer her, someone I might not be able to trust, over Bush, who I know I can't trust.

  5. #25
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    In response to the original question:

    Not nearly enough of it.
    We are not poets
    We have no right to make amendments

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