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  1. #71
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I c whut u did thar, you said "necessarily".
    I think you're reading too much into one word. It's pretty narcissistic to think the world is full of people who want to kill you and your family for fun and envy. What I want is a better world for working people. If that means treading on your toes so be it but I certainly don't have any desire to kill you. In fact, all successful revolutions had their allies in the middle class, and the Leninist tradition has always been for the working class to lead an alliance with the peasantry, intelligentsia and middle classes.

    The reason I said "necessarilly" is because I know enough hsitory that shows that some of the middle classes will always take up arms in civil war against a revolution rather than lose their priveliges.

    But hopefully you wouldn't do that. It's really your choice, people from affluent proffessional backgrounds aren't victims, no-one forces them to defend their wealth and status. Throughout history many, like Marx, Engels and Lenin have chosen to put their wealth and abilities at the service of the workers movement and popular struggles. Obviously, no-one sane would argue that the good apples should be killed just for who their parents were.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #72
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I think you're reading too much into one word. It's pretty narcissistic to think the world is full of people who want to kill you and your family for fun and envy. What I want is a better world for working people. If that means treading on your toes so be it but I certainly don't have any desire to kill you. In fact, all successful revolutions had their allies in the middle class, and the Leninist tradition has always been for the working class to lead an alliance with the peasantry, intelligentsia and middle classes.

    The reason I said "necessarilly" is because I know enough hsitory that shows that some of the middle classes will always take up arms in civil war against a revolution rather than lose their priveliges.

    But hopefully you wouldn't do that. It's really your choice, people from affluent proffessional backgrounds aren't victims, no-one forces them to defend their wealth and status. Throughout history many, like Marx, Engels and Lenin have chosen to put their wealth and abilities at the service of the workers movement and popular struggles. Obviously, no-one sane would argue that the good apples should be killed just for who their parents were.
    But see, there is still war anyway. And that's bad. And there are casualties of war. And people like to hunt down families in war. Because that's just how it is. And during such wars trying to lead a quiet life is generally frowned upon by both parties.

    And of course, I am from a people so associated with the banks that we would likely be killed as conspirators, no matter how ass-raped we've been by the banks as a family, just because of our blood. Look back in history, you will find that there are plenty of people who wanted to kill families like mine for this reason. I'm not being narcissistic, I'm being studied.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #73
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I think you're reading too much into one word. It's pretty narcissistic to think the world is full of people who want to kill you and your family for fun and envy. What I want is a better world for working people. If that means treading on your toes so be it but I certainly don't have any desire to kill you. In fact, all successful revolutions had their allies in the middle class, and the Leninist tradition has always been for the working class to lead an alliance with the peasantry, intelligentsia and middle classes.

    The reason I said "necessarilly" is because I know enough hsitory that shows that some of the middle classes will always take up arms in civil war against a revolution rather than lose their priveliges.

    But hopefully you wouldn't do that. It's really your choice, people from affluent proffessional backgrounds aren't victims, no-one forces them to defend their wealth and status. Throughout history many, like Marx, Engels and Lenin have chosen to put their wealth and abilities at the service of the workers movement and popular struggles. Obviously, no-one sane would argue that the good apples should be killed just for who their parents were.
    In other words, communists only want to kill people who disagree with them. Nice.

  4. #74
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    In other words, communists only want to kill people who disagree with them. Nice.
    I assume you've never taken sides in a war then. Or is it some unmentionable evil to take the side of a revolution, but complete common sense to take the side of the US in a war against another country for example.

    And no, Einstein, I didn't say I want to kill people for disagreeing with me did I? How about you read it again? Or didn't any one of your reputable professors teach you the difference between killing people who are taking up arms against you in a war, and killing people just for disagreeing with you?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #75
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    But see, there is still war anyway. And that's bad.
    There's no peace without justice. If you don't want to use your privelige and wealth to oppose injsutice don't come crying to me when war lands on your doorstep.

    And no I'm not saying I want anything bad to happen to you. Do you see the difference between these two options:"protecting angsty rich kids from the world around them shouldn't be our main priority when the majority of humanity lives in brutal poverty" and "I hate you and want to kill your family.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #76
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    And no I'm not saying I want anything bad to happen to you. Do you see the difference between these two options:"protecting angsty rich kids from the world around them shouldn't be our main priority when the majority of humanity lives in brutal poverty" and "I hate you and want to kill your family.
    There's a technical difference, just like there's a technical difference between racism and bigotry. In practice, there is usually no real difference, as evidenced by pretty much every single communist revolution/regime that has ever existed. And as for you personally, I think your true feelings were illustrated when you stated that you wished Chavez had killed the capitalists within his country.

  7. #77
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    There's no peace without justice. If you don't want to use your privelige and wealth to oppose injsutice don't come crying to me when war lands on your doorstep.

    And no I'm not saying I want anything bad to happen to you. Do you see the difference between these two options:"protecting angsty rich kids from the world around them shouldn't be our main priority when the majority of humanity lives in brutal poverty" and "I hate you and want to kill your family.
    And so there cannot be peace without war? What the hell kind of dictionary are you using?

    I know there's a difference, and I would appreciate it if you stopped saying one while thinking the other.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #78
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    And so the workers get killed fighting and then the kids get caught in the crossfire and the people starve because of blockades and the dissenters are sent to camps and the burgeoisie are all decapatated and WHAT THE FUCK I MEAN SERIOUSLY.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #79
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    There's a technical difference, just like there's a technical difference between racism and bigotry. In practice, there is usually no real difference, as evidenced by pretty much every single communist revolution/regime that has ever existed. And as for you personally, I think your true feelings were illustrated when you stated that you wished Chavez had killed the capitalists within his country.
    Well actually Chavez is bourgeois himself and representative of the lower officer corps and weaker Venezuelan capitalists, so it was a stupid thing to say. What I actually hope, is that the genuine revolutioanries in Venezuela will rpelace Chavez as the leadership of the working class, and lead the mvoement towars the expropriation of the capitalists, using the national wealth for the benefit of the people and not a tiny minority. This is a progressive program for the transformation of society.

    Expropriate yes. Kill an unarmed person who poses no threat? No, actually, I would be against that. I say imprison them instead. The Bolsheviks did not make it a policy to kill their opponents on coming to power, not even the capitalists, but let alone the middle class intelligentsia and proffessionals. Considering the context and the degree of terrorism and international embargo which the opposition carrie dout against the Russian revolution, the Bolsheviks were incredibly restrained - and rightfully so.

    Also the best minds form the bourgeosie, the young radical kids, in any revolutionary period, will change sides, and reject their parents. Engels is a great example. It's not my fault if the mediocre ones choose to defend their priveliges is it? Nobody forces them to remain capitalists. But why do you assume they have a natural right to a life of luxury at everyone's expense? :confused:

    So again I'm finding it hard to see what your moralism is referring to. Are you against all use of force? All war? Or only when the rich get killed instead of anonymous Afghans or black and Latino US soldiers?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #80
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    And so the workers get killed fighting and then the kids get caught in the crossfire and the people starve because of blockades and the dissenters are sent to camps and the burgeoisie are all decapatated and WHAT THE FUCK I MEAN SERIOUSLY.
    The workers are already getting killed snd their kids are already starving. What's your proposal to fix this, out of curiosity?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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