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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I remembered being very upset when I was little because my parents would be the first to die in bloody revolution because they happened to be well-educated and have well-paying jobs.
    Rest assured that as long as Americans can haz dollar cheeseburgers, there will be no bloody revolution. I tend to think, because of what history has shown us, that sort of thing involves hunger and suffering on a wide scale.

  2. #62
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I remembered being very upset when I was little because my parents would be the first to die in bloody revolution because they happened to be well-educated and have well-paying jobs.
    This isn't necessarilly the case. Do you really think socialists want to kill everyone who is middle class? We don't.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #63
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    This isn't necessarilly the case. Do you really think socialists want to kill everyone who is middle class? We don't.
    I c whut u did thar, you said "necessarily".
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #64
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    You're talking formalistic nonsense I'm afraid. I know people who were in Honduras at the time. The military routinely kidnapped and tortured the people involved in the resistance.
    correct. the military kidnapped and tortured those in the "resistance" who kidnapped and tortured the locals.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    What would be these "forms" exactly? Given what you know about my beliefs and how my take on a libertarian world would be, where would murder and plunder come in?
    Willfully denying health care to people - this includes many working people as I'm sure you must know - is a quiet form of murder. Wal-Mart driving small businesses out and then paying the people they employ barely enough of live off of is a form of plunder.

    I'm not taking issue with your individual beliefs. Personally, one of the things that I like about some forms of libertarianism is the focus on small business rather than mega corps. I'm taking issue with the blanket idea of "free market capitalism."




    Please elaborate.
    Government institutions theoretically exist to help people (including the sick, disabled, students, etc.) who actually need help. A lot of people who espouse free-market capitalism all too often make it only about "you're just not working hard enough! pull yourself up by your bootstraps!"

    I know *some* libertarians are very altruistic people who believe in helping others without a government middle man, and that's very noble and sweet, but it's overly idealistic when addressing large social problems.

  6. #66
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    correct. the military kidnapped and tortured those in the "resistance" who kidnapped and tortured the locals.
    Rubbish.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #67
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=marmalade.sunrise;1017056]Willfully denying health care to people - this includes many working people as I'm sure you must know - is a quiet form of murder. Wal-Mart driving small businesses out and then paying the people they employ barely enough of live off of is a form of plunder.

    I'm not taking issue with your individual beliefs. Personally, one of the things that I like about some forms of libertarianism is the focus on small business rather than mega corps. I'm taking issue with the blanket idea of "free market capitalism."






    Government institutions theoretically exist to help people (including the sick, disabled, students, etc.) who actually need help. A lot of people who espouse free-market capitalism all too often make it only about "you're just not working hard enough! pull yourself up by your bootstraps!"
    The first part is very naive. Change it to "corporations theoretically exist to help people by giving them jobs and making demanded good cheaply and efficiently." Of course, some do (and some governments are better/more benevolent than others), but your faith in the benevolence of government is naive enough to be very dangerous. Especially since government have a monopoly on the legal use of force.

    The second part is a very glib characterization. I've never read "pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" by any libertarian writer. I could suggest some libertarians texts you could read. Sometimes the "welfare is legalized theft/people are abusing the system" rhetoric is strong, but I think you will find liberty is always the thrust. Some people don't WANT to work harder, and that is totally fine for libertarians. They just shouldn't expect other people to pay for their indolence.


    I know *some* libertarians are very altruistic people who believing in helping others without a government middle man, and that's very noble and sweet, but it's overly idealistic when addressing large social problems.
    Is it? Poverty hasn't decreased due to the government's War on Poverty. Drug use hasn't decreased due to the government's War on Drugs. Terrorism still exists after we declared War on Terrorism. I think it's far more idealistic (and naive) to expect government to handle large social problems well.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #68
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    Some people don't WANT to work harder, and that is totally fine for libertarians. They just shouldn't expect other people to pay for their indolence.
    Again illustrating my point that you people over-simplify it down to simple laziness.




    Is it? Poverty hasn't decreased due to the government's War on Poverty. Drug use hasn't decreased due to the government's War on Drugs. Terrorism still exists after we declared War on Terrorism. I think it's far more idealistic (and naive) to expect government to handle large social problems well.
    Actually, poverty is being handled quite well when the vast majority of your citizens are well fed. There are a multitude of reasons why poverty exists, and the responsibility surely doesn't solely rest upon the United States government. I don't believe in the war on drugs at all, and as for the war on terror...hmmm, I sincerely wonder if we could possibly know how bad it would be without it. There's no real proof that we aren't being protected to some extent.

    Sure, it's idealistic and naiive to believe in straight-up Marxism. I really don't trust big business or the government. As I said before, there has to be a balance. I like the idea of one keeping an eye on the other, and vice versa.

  9. #69
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Again illustrating my point that you people over-simplify it down to simple laziness.
    It's not oversimplification. Some people have different goals in life. It's not always laziness.


    Actually, poverty is being handled quite well when the vast majority of your citizens are well fed. There are a multitude of reasons why poverty exists, and the responsibility surely doesn't solely rest upon the United States government. I don't believe in the war on drugs at all, and as for the war on terror...hmmm, I sincerely wonder if we could possibly know how bad it would be without it. There's no real proof that we aren't being protected to some extent.
    I don't think we'd have much of a terrorism problem in the United States if we changed our foreign policy significantly, but that ship has sailed for the next generation at least. The government didn't create poverty, but it sure as hell hasn't done a good job of ending it.


    Sure, it's idealistic and naiive to believe in straight-up Marxism. I really don't trust big business or the government. As I said before, there has to be a balance. I like the idea of one keeping an eye on the other, and vice versa.
    It's not just Marxism. Do you honestly believe that Bush or Obama are going to make major positive changes in the United States? Congress?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's not oversimplification. Some people have different goals in life. It's not always laziness.
    It's not just about having different goals, either. It's about illness, disability, random chance, and how everyone doesn't start from the same place.

    Like I said, I don't like lazy people with a sense of entitlement, either. I'm not some extremist liberal who thinks that everyone on welfare deserves what they get. I actually really admired Bill Clinton for putting limits on welfare. I think there should be time limits, incentives to work, etc. I can't begin to tell you how disgusted I get with people who keep reproducing and expect the government to keep paying for it, even as they cook crystal meth and get their fake nails done every week. I'm not a fool.

    But stopping social programs completely is not the answer, either. I find "reform" to be a much more sensible word than "revolution."




    I don't think we'd have much of a terrorism problem in the United States if we changed our foreign policy significantly, but that ship has sailed for the next generation at least. The government didn't create poverty, but it sure as hell hasn't done a good job of ending it.
    Compared to countries like Mexico, I think we're doing okay.




    It's not just Marxism. Do you honestly believe that Bush or Obama are going to make major positive changes in the United States? Congress?
    I think Obama is trying to make major positive changes in the United States, but I don't believe that he's my Daddy or that he's a superhero here to save the day, either.

    My views of government are very moderate at the moment. At this juncture, I think it would be unwise for me to have any sort of extreme opinions. I'm in the process of thinking, honestly that's what's going with me at this phase in my life in regards to political stuff - but I've read and thought about libertarianism enough to know that it's no more the answer than Marxism is.

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