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  1. #51
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I typically avoid PMs unless I am on the verge of a mental breakdown. I don't find a problem with asking this question on the board.

    I'm just curious about country. Now, if you live in Luxembourg or Vatican City, I can understand why you are wary, but I was going out on a limb and guessing you weren't.
    I was wondering what were you reasons for asking. It seemed that in the context of this discussion it would be a leading question, and I had a fairly good guess what it wa sleading to. Apologies if I was mistaken. But I still don't see the relevance here...if I could have it explained to me, I might answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    CNN analysis: Majority of eligible Hondurans voted in presidential election - CNN.com)

    Funny how the candidates and parties who opposed what was the Honduran equivalent of an impeachment received very few votes...
    You do realize that in Latin America CNN is regarded as an ultra-right wing, US propaganda source, and little more? They say 40% which is exactly what the government say. But plenty of other sources say above 65%.

    Maybe the low votes of the anti-"impeachment" (tha funny kind of impeachment that involves the army taking the PResident out at gunpoint, exiling him, closing down opposition media, and killing, torturing and arresting the opposition) were mainly boycotting the election after zelaya was banned from standing in it!? I mean you do realize that the National Front of Resistance to the Coup, called for a boycott, so why the hell would you expect anti-coup candidates to do well!?

    And if they were so sure Zeleya would lose, why not let him stand? And why the fear of his indicative referendum removing term limits if he'd lose it anyway?

    Actually I feel diminished as a human being by having to point out such obvious things, but there you go. :s
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #52
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I was wondering what were you reasons for asking. It seemed that in the context of this discussion it would be a leading question, and I had a fairly good guess what it wa sleading to. Apologies if I was mistaken. But I still don't see the relevance here...if I could have it explained to me, I might answer.
    I was just curious as to where someone with views such as yours would have come from! Is this such a crime?

    Oh yes, I forgot. I'm an American, I'm not allowed to be curious.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #53
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I was just curious as to where someone with views such as yours would have come from! Is this such a crime?

    Oh yes, I forgot. I'm an American, I'm not allowed to be curious.
    Well, my parents are both workers, and so am I. I consider this enough reason to hate capitalism. Why should the majority of humanity work, so a minority can profit?

    I consider American workers to be brothers and sisters, not an enemy. Look at how the General Motors workers got screwed for example. Look at all those folks losing their homes, or in the soup kitchens. Those people share a common enemy as do the workers of Honduras and Venezuela: capitalism and US imperialism.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #54
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Well, my parents are both workers, and so am I. I consider this enough reason to hate capitalism. Why should the majority of humanity work, so a minority can profit?

    I consider American workers to be brothers and sisters, not an enemy. Look at how the General Motors workers got screwed for example. Look at all those folks losing their homes, or in the soup kitchens. Those people share a common enemy as do the workers of Honduras and Venezuela: capitalism and US imperialism.
    My parents are both workers, too. And yet I love free market capitalism and don't want to murder and plunder everyone. Funny how that works.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #55
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Well, my parents are both workers, and so am I. I consider this enough reason to hate capitalism. Why should the majority of humanity work, so a minority can profit?

    I consider American workers to be brothers and sisters, not an enemy. Look at how the General Motors workers got screwed for example. Look at all those folks losing their homes, or in the soup kitchens. Those people share a common enemy as do the workers of Honduras and Venezuela: capitalism and US imperialism.
    So you are not American. Do you live on the American continents? Venezuela?

    Actually, I think you would be shocked at how easily it is to get screwed over in America. My father was thoroughly screwed over by The Man while he is The Man, a bona-fide patent attorney!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    My parents are both workers, too. And yet I love free market capitalism and don't want to murder and plunder everyone. Funny how that works.
    Some forms of free market capitalism essentially equal murder and plunder.

    That's the problem.

    I don't have a problem with capitalism, per se, I hate lazy fuckers who sit on their ass and act entitled to free stuff as much as the next person, but there has to be a balance because in the end it's obviously not just about lazy vs. hard working.

  7. #57
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Maybe the low votes of the anti-"impeachment" (tha funny kind of impeachment that involves the army taking the PResident out at gunpoint, exiling him, closing down opposition media, and killing, torturing and arresting the opposition) were mainly boycotting the election after zelaya was banned from standing in it!?
    Turn-out was about the same as the election Zeleya(sic) won in 2005; digest the context and implications of that simple fact for a moment...

    The military acted in accordance with civilian authority and the laws of that land; I distinctly remember my old college professor (who, incidentally, was a renowned election observer who verified the integrity of Chavez's victory in the Venezuelan recall election) bringing up this problematic fact about certain Latin American political institutions several years ago. The only potentially illegal action in the process was the decision to exile Zeleya(sic) rather than charge him for his illegal actions, in a misguided attempt to avoid the political instability that prosecuting him might bring about.

    As for the other allegations; there was a brief (and objectionable) period of state of emergency in which freedoms of the press and assembly were restricted, sometimes violently in the case of the latter (though its unclear how much this was in response to riotous behaivor rather than peaceful assembly); there is no credible evidence that I am aware of indicating the temporary government tortured political opponents. In any event, the subsequent elections were deemed free and fair by reputable international observers.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 01-22-2010 at 11:33 PM. Reason: clarification

  8. #58
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Some forms of free market capitalism essentially equal murder and plunder.

    That's the problem.
    What would be these "forms" exactly? Given what you know about my beliefs and how my take on a libertarian world would be, where would murder and plunder come in?


    I don't have a problem with capitalism, per se, I hate lazy fuckers who sit on their ass and act entitled to free stuff as much as the next person, but there has to be a balance because in the end it's obviously not just about lazy vs. hard working.
    Please elaborate.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #59
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I remembered being very upset when I was little because my parents would be the first to die in bloody revolution because they happened to be well-educated and have well-paying jobs.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #60
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Turn-out was about the same as the election Zeleya(sic) won in 2005; digest the context and implications of that simple fact for a moment...

    The military acted in accordance with civilian authority and the laws of that land; I distinctly remember my old college professor (who, incidentally, was a renowned election observer who verified the integrity of Chavez's victory in the Venezuelan recall election) bringing up this problematic fact about certain Latin American political institutions several years ago. The only potentially illegal action in the process was the decision to exile Zeleya(sic) rather than charge him for his illegal actions, in a misguided attempt to avoid the political instability that prosecuting him might bring about.

    As for the other allegations; there was a brief (and objectionable) period of state of emergency in which freedoms of the press and assembly were restricted, sometimes violently in the case of the latter (though its unclear how much this was in response to riotous behaivor rather than peaceful assembly); there is no credible evidence that I am aware of indicating the temporary government tortured political opponents. In any event, the subsequent elections were deemed free and fair by reputable international observers.
    You're talking formalistic nonsense I'm afraid. You seem to thinkt hat because CNN says something, it becomes the objective truth.

    I know people who were in Honduras at the time. The military routinely kidnapped and tortured the people involved in the resistance. Some of the hardest hit were the feminist movements and the teachers unions. They also shut down the opposition media. I really can't be bothered ot look for links on all this, because I find it hard to be detached about this topic, and more than anything I have to be writing something else, but I promise you I will find you the reports of all this when I can be bothered (unless you want to look for them yourself "torture" and "honduras" and "teachers union" or "resistance fron" will get you enough results).

    In any case you're talking about the "law of the land" ignoring the context of this "law", i.e. the constitution was written under practical US miltiary occupation, in the 1980, by the Americans, and the key condition was that hte constitution could never be changed! And then when Zelaya proposed an indicative referendum on a very mild issue, he was rmeoved by the military, exiled, and banned from the next election! And all the way through, you're telling me this is democratic? :s

    I can't really do anything but laugh in response. Your definition of "democracy" is to fetishize "constitutions" written by the US State Deprtment and a tiny minority who own all the countries wealth, and defended by unelected and unaccountable armed forces, backed up by US miltiary bases. What planet do you live on?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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