User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: No longer right

  1. #1
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    1,635

    Default No longer right

    I had for a few years now been a supporter of fiscal right policy.

    Recently it became pretty clear to me that I'd rather live in a place where the people around me have gone to school, so that they might be at least marginally less moronic.

    I am starting this thread separate from the currently running left vs. right thread because I don't want to hijack it or be lost in the blur of dogmatism.

    I would like to know how socialists intend to keep their systems free of the incredibly strong pull towards inefficiency and reactive legislating that elections combined with large budgets often result in.

    I want to consolidate my conversion into a left-leaner.

    Unfortunately as it stands now I am far more trusting of something similar to a monarchist model with heavy social spending according to a constitution.
    wails from the crypt.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,630

    Default

    What right vs. left thread?

    The reality is that there are mixed economies in every country in the world, its not just a desire not to live around moronic people which drives social spending and education spending in those state economies not inclined towards residual rather than institutional welfare regimes. Its mainly a drive to create skills based economies which can compete with low wage unskilled economies to attract investment from the transnationals.

    I dont know how anyone can be monarchist, the idea in an abstract sense is interesting but the reality falls far, far short and unless it were a constitutional monarchy, which is in any case really a democracy and parliamentary sovereignty anyway, the figure head in those constitutional monarchies which exist have never mobilised armed forces against usurpers, nor are they likely to, the only exception in living memory was the monarch of Spain restoring democracy after Franco's death and the pressure from Europe for the country to join the rest of us in the modern world.

    Reactive legislation and inefficiency are hazards in any society, its not just to do with fiscal policy or spending, personally I think its to do with cultural factors and the reproduction of things like emotional literacy, emotional competence, social intelligence, social conscience and positive attributes generation on generation.

    Sometimes this is done well by informal systems but they get pressurised by other more powerful cultural forces like that created by consumer economies. Despite what anyone says about the pitence paid out through redistribution and the materialist expectations for a particular standard of living which welfare systems create the real source of avaratiousness is elsewhere.

  3. #3
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    Well capitalism leads inevitably to concentration of wealth (how could a system of competition not be a constant drive to monopoly). And it also has an inherent tendency to cyclial crisis. If you put huge corporations and cyclical crisis together, you get state insured but privately owned monstrosities, as this crisis shows (you can hardly let companies on which pretty much whole eocnomic sectors are dependent go under, unless you want to put peoples living standards back 70 years and have a revolution, which our ruling classes understandably do not).

    So what could be more inefficient than privately owned, state insured mega-corporations? A state monopoly would be more efficient, because those sums spent on wages and wasted in "competition" between a handful of institutions, could be reinvested into production.

    Not that I am arguing for that - you then have the whole argument over who controls the state. But, it's a start.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #4
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    Unfortunately as it stands now I am far more trusting of something similar to a monarchist model with heavy social spending according to a constitution.
    Political theory since the ascendancy of liberalism has been the search to compensate for the fact that the enlightened despot does not exist, not to mention will not exist. Communism replaced that despot with the proletarian, fascism with an integration of business and politics. Theocracy does the same with religion, while anarchy tries to wish it away.

  5. #5
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Posts
    6,707

    Default

    Does fiscal left policy necessarily lead to smarter people?

    I've heard a lot of arguments for socialism, but that's not really one of them.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #6
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Political theory since the ascendancy of liberalism has been the search to compensate for the fact that the enlightened despot does not exist, not to mention will not exist.
    This is ironic, as there would have been no liberal democracy, not to mention industrial revolution, without the English revolution and Cromwell's dictatorship laying the grounds for it.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #7
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    This is ironic, as there would have been no liberal democracy, not to mention industrial revolution, without the English revolution and Cromwell's dictatorship laying the grounds for it.
    People still thought an enlightened despot was possible at that point, but the power of the English nobility was simply too strong for the Rump Parliament to maintain the Commonwealth. The idea of constitutional monarchy is nothing more than an attempt to force a king or queen to be an enlightened despot, isn't it?

  8. #8
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    People still thought an enlightened despot was possible at that point, but the power of the English nobility was simply too strong for the Rump Parliament to maintain the Commonwealth. The idea of constitutional monarchy is nothing more than an attempt to force a king or queen to be an enlightened despot, isn't it?
    I wouldn't call monarchs in Britain after 1660 "enlightened despots", they were surely too limited by parliament and the interests of the bourgeois class ...?

    My argument is that Cromwell and Charles I might both have been "despots", and perhaps the regime under Cromwell's troops was even more "despotic" than the regime it overthrow, but that they can't be equated, because one represented the interests of a class capable (back then) of developing the means of production and creating a modern society, and the other was blocking the road to such progress.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #9
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Socionics
    LoL
    Posts
    929

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Does fiscal left policy necessarily lead to smarter people?

    I've heard a lot of arguments for socialism, but that's not really one of them.
    I have also not heard this used, nor validated, as an argument for socialism...
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  10. #10
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    1,292

    Default

    Well, the "socialist" countries were usually very well-educated. Cuba has a higher rate of literacy than the US, and the Soviet Union was an extremely educated society. This is because to a much greater extent than the capitalist countries, they focussed on raising up their whole population out of past cultural backwardness, and there was/is a genuine belief and desire for normal workers, that their children can become proffessionals, a desire/belief pretty much absent in the masses in most capitalist countries.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

Similar Threads

  1. When is being late no longer fashionable?
    By Lurker in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-17-2009, 10:33 PM
  2. 'The Bible is no longer considered part of the conversation'
    By Sniffles in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 172
    Last Post: 04-17-2009, 08:36 AM
  3. No Longer Lurking
    By desiree in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 12-14-2008, 10:26 AM
  4. Despair no longer.
    By Soren in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-11-2008, 01:37 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO