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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Well, if I'm subaltern, then it suits my self-interest to change that situation as quickly as possible. Since the hegemons would likely defend their resources, I'd have to take it from them by force, in any way possible.

    You see why feudalism becomes much more difficult to maintain after the invention of firearms.
    Then I'd use my resources to create a subgroup. I'd tell this subgroup that they're above you, that they're the heart and soul of society. That to defend society would be in their best interest. For some, the promise of a wonderful afterlife might help. For others, the idea of a legacy of tradition for their children. I'd offer them trinkets, to amuse themselves. I would set it up so that indeed, it would be in individual best interest to serve.

    They couldn't be too large a number, less they start to become expensive and potentially powerful in their own right, so they'd need a technological and military advantage. They'd need to be organised independently in a way to make it hard for them to work in tandem. I'd seek to have a military, to service society, filled with this group of cultural warriors and defenders of the faith. Only under the right directions would it together be powerful. Amongst themselves, if they were to turn, they would be in this disadvantaged position.

  2. #62
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    Then I'd use my resources to create a subgroup. I'd tell this subgroup that they're above you, that they're the heart and soul of society. That to defend society would be in their best interest. For some, the promise of a wonderful afterlife might help. For others, the idea of a legacy of tradition for their children. I'd offer them trinkets, to amuse themselves. I would set it up so that indeed, it would be in individual best interest to serve.

    They couldn't be too large a number, less they start to become expensive and potentially powerful in their own right, so they'd need a technological and military advantage. They'd need to be organised independently in a way to make it hard for them to work in tandem. I'd seek to have a military, to service society, filled with this group of cultural warriors and defenders of the faith. Only under the right directions would it together be powerful. Amongst themselves, if they were to turn, they would be in this disadvantaged position.
    And then I'd just get a job working for ya, become indispensable and then take out your legs from underneath ya. Nothing personal.

    Feudalism's just too expensive to maintain.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And then I'd just get a job working for ya, become indispensable and then take out your legs from underneath ya. Nothing personal.
    You'd become my righthand-man, putting yourself in a position of great control, then you'd throw it away for nothing?

    I'd admire your accomplishments, certainly, but with accomplishments often come power. Would you really exchange power and life for a small ideological victory? I would be replaced by a next-of-kin and the cycle would continue. You would be ended. Such a waste of the power that you would wield.

  4. #64
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    You'd become my righthand-man, putting yourself in a position of great control, then you'd throw it away for nothing?

    I'd admire your accomplishments, certainly, but with accomplishments often come power. Would you really exchange power and life for a small ideological victory? I would be replaced by a next-of-kin and the cycle would continue. You would be ended. Such a waste of the power that you would wield.
    Spite is a hell of a motivator. We're all worm food in the end.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Spite is a hell of a motivator. We're all worm food in the end.
    Spite is a petty emotion. I very much doubt you're trying to debate by using an appeal to emotion, rather than reason. If at this point you're not trying to persuade me into adopting your beliefs, what is your motivation for speaking of such ills?

  6. #66
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    Petty emotions change the world, buddy. We're not rational self-interested actors. For every 35 who go along with the plan, there's at least one like me who will screw with the plans because anything other than self-determination is personally offensive. In the West, we're mitigated because of the apparent meritocracy, and the ability of the power structure to have us blame ourselves for whatever failure.

    In the Arab world, we're called terrorists.

  7. #67
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    What is your proposal for self-determination, access to others' property? Entitlement to the labour of others? It's especially curious to me that you would call that self-determination, unless you speak solely from the perspective of an individual with few resources who seeks to lessen the self-determination of those with many resources.

    Try as you may to ruin plans, ultimately types like you do not. Mere delays. Temporary and slight setbacks. Such vigour against such overwhelming power is in the most significant times, footnotes in the overall story.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    Then I'd use my resources to create a subgroup. I'd tell this subgroup that they're above you, that they're the heart and soul of society. That to defend society would be in their best interest. For some, the promise of a wonderful afterlife might help. For others, the idea of a legacy of tradition for their children. I'd offer them trinkets, to amuse themselves. I would set it up so that indeed, it would be in individual best interest to serve.

    They couldn't be too large a number, less they start to become expensive and potentially powerful in their own right, so they'd need a technological and military advantage. They'd need to be organised independently in a way to make it hard for them to work in tandem. I'd seek to have a military, to service society, filled with this group of cultural warriors and defenders of the faith. Only under the right directions would it together be powerful. Amongst themselves, if they were to turn, they would be in this disadvantaged position.
    You wouldn't get very far. In your head, I'm sure all your pretty little theories play out nicely, but in the real world, shit happens, shit you don't plan for. People do irrational things. You don't understand it. No one can explain it. Try as you might to rationalize it, to predict it, you'll never succeed.

    I'm convinced this guy is a troll.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You wouldn't get very far. In your head, I'm sure all your pretty little theories play out nicely, but in the real world, shit happens, shit you don't plan for. People do irrational things. You don't understand it. No one can explain it. Try as you might to rationalize it, to predict it, you'll never succeed.

    I'm convinced this guy is a troll.
    At the time I created that post, it was clear that the real world wasn't being discussed. Notions were simply being entertained. I alluded to this when I asked the purpose if not to convince me. A troll would not bring such a thing up.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    I prefer a system where one's freedom is only limited by the amount of resources one has. With his/her resources, he/she can discriminate however she likes, imposing a moral and cultural hegemony. I'm a moral relativist and I perceive moral adherence as a preference. The more power a person has, the more he/she can satisfy his her preferences and maximize his/her utility. For powerful people, exercising such degrees of hegemony and will derives the same utilitarian pleasure as simple good consumption does for less powerful people.

    Ideas of democracy, equality and wealth redistribution are not my ideals. While a republic can be useful for unity and organization, I feel it's only just when one's say is grounded in one's investment in absolute terms.

    I favour a feudal capitalism, I suppose.
    The description feudal capitalism is a little oxymoronic but it could be used to describe a consumer society with limited class mobility which I believe is what you are describing.

    I would say that your definition of power is a value judgement, you're valuing power for itself and believing that all else is justified by its possession, very Nietzsche for the junior reader. Or you could simply be a sociopath but I tend to find that most people prefer the prior label.

    BTW the sort of socio-economic system you're stating you favour thrives upon the fantasy of it you're entertaining and also the fantasy of yourself as a success within it. Not only that it tends to make mince meat out of all those who support it, whether they can be considered to be a "success" or not.

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